I can only think of one Kansas senior going on to wrestle Division One this year. Not Grater or Taplin and Cornejo is unsigned. The problem is the Kansas style of wrestling doesn't fit big time college wrestling programs. The best college matches are all about handfighting and shots and counters and scrambles from the feet. Most of our kids are not shooters and they're taught too little on their feet and too much on top. The exceptions, Dyer/Johnston/Roberson---all great on their feet. The Kansas style is ride and ride and ride some more. Our refs and coaches have unknowingly conspired to run Kansas into the ground by having kids ride for minutes at a time without calling stalling. Top is a nice bonus but the least important position. You don't need it to win matches. College coaches want to see kids with great skills on their feet. Kansas coaches and refs, you need to evolve. It's funny to hear coaches talk on this forum about how taking a kid down and letting him go is poor sportsmanship. I guess they never saw Cael Sanderson wrestle? If you went to last year's Metro Classic in KC, you know exactly what I'm talking about. KS got cut to shreds from their feet. Idea: Hold a few pre-season takedown tournaments in your area.
So, who is the one that is going D-I this year?
Gut, good post and good effort but some points i beg to differ with you.
Sanderson was one of the most and one of the last dominant riders in college wrestling history, he absolutely was a monster smothering you from the top.
It is totally true that we Kansas guys are very unskilled at handfighting in general lack the attack, attack and attach again philosophy on our feet. We would get hit for stalling so much more if it was called right.
The problem with the D1 situation is this. Overall the scholarships have dwindled on that level. I absolutely love Brady Lamar as a kid and a wrestler, he is going D1 because he absolutely blew away his grades and standardized tests. He is not a money risk for Nebraska or Columbia.
I attended the Big 12 meet this past weekend and spoke with Coach Douglas of Iowa State. Keep in mind he has Coleman on his roster from Manhattan and was Robersons coach. He stated that when he can bring an in state kid in on a partial scholarship vs. going outside the state and blowing twice as much on a Kansas kid, he has to lean toward the in state kid in order to divy up the pot.
Kansas has no D1 program and that is crippling our kids more than anything.
Originally posted by kanwrman:
I attended the Big 12 meet this past weekend and spoke with Coach Douglas of Iowa State. Keep in mind he has Coleman on his roster from Manhattan and was Robersons coach. He stated that when he can bring an in state kid in on a partial scholarship vs. going outside the state and blowing twice as much on a Kansas kid, he has to lean toward the in state kid in order to divy up the pot.
You can't get anymore right on than the above statement. The problem isn't our kids or coaching it's the lack of a D1 program! The same would be true of any other under-funded D1 sport if they didn't exist already at WSU, KU or KSU. Baseball is a prime example.
Coleman is going for his second straight D-1 All-American season, and he is like a spider on top.
I agree that Kansas colleges are killing Kansas wrestling, not coaches and officials.
He stated that when he can bring an in state kid in on a partial scholarship vs. going outside the state and blowing twice as much on a Kansas kid, he has to lean toward the in state kid in order to divy up the pot.
Kansas has no D1 program and that is crippling our kids more than anything.
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pffffffft gutwrench1! I do believe if a kid wants any sport they can be marketed by their coach. If they are seriously wanting professional sports then they will find a way as well.A lot of kids are great at what they do in high school..not just any tom,dick or harry can make it in college. I also believe some incredibly talented kids in all sports are overlooked for scholarships for college and this happens in every state.
Had an opportunity to visit with Coach Smith at a wrestling clinic last year at OSU. He was commenting on only having 9 full scholarships (total) for his wrestling program. Can you imagine the limitations on a D1 program of that caliber and only having 9 full rides? The same is true with all of the other high profile schools. This has to put a tremendous competition on recruiting and the number of quality, talented kids that HAVE to get overlooked or bypassed.
Funny that Bobby Douglas would say that since his only two starters from Iowa are twins. The other 8 are from all over the country. Coleman went to BYU first and did that Morman thing and is closer to 30 yrs old than he is to 20. He's been away from KS for a very long time. I sat with a couple of DI coaches this summer in Fargo and they told me why didn't like what they saw from Kansas--a lack of shooting. Keep track of takedowns tomorrow night against MO. Last year it was 10 takedowns for MO for every one that KS got. Blame our lack of kids going to DI this year on whatever you want to but I think the coaches and refs have created/allowed for a style that doesn't work at the next level. Riding is not going to get you a scholarship.
PS. We weren't watching the same Sanderson, the one I saw was a heel-picking, high C-ing, front-headlocking takedown machine.
Have to agree with gutwrench on comments concerning Sanderson...of course, Mr. Sanderson was pretty darn good in all phases of wrestling.
See, I'm not such a bad guy for trying to get the takedown record. lol.
All fully funded DI programs have a maximum of 9.9 scholarships for wrestling. In most cases they get 9.9 scholarships whether they're in or out of state.
The real budget comes from other sources. Wrestlers work at camps and get paid whatever the coach wants/can give them or they have work study jobs (mopping mats, etc.) At a place like OSU, there's a lot of money provided by their booster club which pays for all those Olympians and other grad assts who stick around. Plus off-season travel dollars for their "club" team. I bet OSU's booster club donates as much or more money each year to wrestling than the school budget for wrestling is.
Gutwrench is 100 percent on base, but there really is no blame to pass around.
The lack of a Division I program, or even more than two four-year programs, hurts the sport in Kansas as much as anything else. I loved the years I spent in Kansas and will always cherish them. But there is a marked difference between Kansas wrestlers (overall) and those from other states.
There are no upper-level role-models for Kansas wrestlers to look to. Oklahoma has two powerhouse D-I programs, a solid Division II and numberous other smaller schools. Iowa has three D-Is, 12 D-IIIs, a couple of NAIAs and three jucos. All of these schools offer off-season camps and clinics and their coaches are frequently in attendence at high school meets.
Kansas needs college wrestling to move to the next level in high school. For every Taplin, Cornejo, Grater, Robeson, Johnston, Bunch and Coleman there are dozens of others with potential who are stuck in the wrong style.
Where is Salyer when we need him eh? D-1 is not the end all be all here. As far as "big time wrestling college programs" a LOT of great kids can get wrestling scholarships from D-less colleges AND complete their education. Just because a kid doesn't go D-1 does not mean they aren't exceptional. There IS life beyond wrestling. Funny thing is you are trying to blame an entire lot of kids not going D-1 because YOU think that is where they WANT to go.
Gutwrench, where do I begin?
1st off, assuming that because Grater, Taplin, and Cornejo didn't sign with a D1 school means we are lacking is absurd. I have a very strong suspicion that Grater didn't sign D1 because he wanted to be close to home at Ft. Hays. As for the others, I'm guessing they didn't go D1 for the same reasons. Finishing in the Top 10 nationally year after year in Fargo is not crippling.
2nd, there is no law that says once you finish high school, you have to wrestle or you suck, which is what you are implying. Could it be that some of our elite are making sound financial decisions and hanging their shoes up because they can't afford the out of state tuition? We are not Blair Academy.
3rd, why would you judge KS's superiority (or inferiority) over Mizzou on the Metro Classic. It is a very well known fact that this dual is not stacked in Kansas's favor. Missouri's strongest in KCMO - KS is not. Any person that knows anything about wrestling could tell you that.
If anything, what kills KS wresters is Kansans themselves. We have stacked the cards out of our favor. KSHSAA has silly rules, KWCA is hellbent on the Dual State concept, and kids are losing interest by the time they reach high school. Plus, look at our situation population wise. There's a reason Ohio has more D1 athletes that we do. They have more kids. Then just think economically speaking. Very few of our kids have the financial resources to travel all over the country or world (Kenny Monday's club traveling to Asia comes to mind).
Even though the cards may not be stacked in our favor, we do pretty darn good considering what we're up against.
If you ask me, I like what I see from Kansas. We have successful wrestlers coming back to coach our high school kids. Eric Akin, Kenny Taylor, Beau Vest, Charles Knox, and whole mess of Ft. Hays wrestlers comes to mind. I'd even throw my name in the mix, even though I wasn't as accomplished.
That's the true testament of wrestling in Kansas. I'm happy when we get a D1 signing, but I'm elated when I see our wrestlers putting time back into a sport that has given them so much.
Maybe Richard Salyer can figure out how well we would fare if our wrestlers were to just stay home at a D1 school vs the rest of the colleges this NCAA. I'm betting we'd be doing pretty good.
Gibby made my Christmas list!!! Yeah what Gibby typed !!! gee...let's see who wants to wrestle there eh?
Sorry Gibby, gotta fight you on a couple of things here...
First, are you going to tell me that the four top recruits in the state this year all turned down D-I scholarships? Chances are they weren't recruited or just offered walk-on status while UNO or Ft. Hays offered money.
Second, there are other schools that offer wrestling besides D-Is. Matt Pyle seems to be doing just fine at Luther (private school, but liberal financial aid). And the Blair Academy comment was silly --- Iowa is no more wealthy than Kansas and 90 percent of the D-III rosters in the state are filled with in-state athletes. There are numberous opportunities not that far from the Kansas borders that one can find wrestling opportunity.
Third, don't blame KSHSAA and don't blame the KWCA. Iowa has more DI athletes than Kansas (as does Oklahoma and Nebraska) and the populations are pretty much the same. KSHSAA's rules (other than the points thing) are so liberal in wrestling that I miss them greatly. You want oppressive rules, come up here. And our kids are no more wealthy and they still figure out ways to wrestle at the top levels in the off-season.
The fact of the matter is that overall, Kansas wrestling is stuck in a style that does not translate well outside the state. Robeson and Coleman and Akin got to where they are with a lot of hard work outside of Kansas. Granted, with the lack of scholarship money, D-I schools throw nickels around like they're manhole covers.
But college coaches aren't dumb enough to turn down someone they see as a solid prospect, either. This is about potential more than money Gibby, it really is.
Kansas wrestling is exciting and fun to watch. I enjoyed coaching there and the friendships I made along the way. But with no examples in house (as in KU or K-State) to look at, it just can't grow at the same rate --- and that's not a knock, it's a fact.
P.S. --- For the record, over 8,000 fans from 24 schools showed up Saturday for Iowa's 20th State Duals in Cedar Rapids. C'mon Gibby, can we really ALL be that wrong?
I think if Kansas had a few D-1 schools we would do pretty good. Look at our JUCO schools, many of them are always on the top...Labette, Neosho, Colby... And many of them have alot of Kansas wrestlers. Kansas just needs more opportunities for in-state D1 wrestling.
I agree with LTW, if we had even one DI school in Kansas you'd see them start excelling immediately, you figure you could keep half of the Juco kids in Kansas and with the success of the Jucos you figure it's a breeding ground for success, too bad KU, KSU, or WSU won't add wrestling they're sitting on a gold mine
If only James Naismith had hung his peach basket in Iowa City...wrestle on you Kansas studs and thanks for your contributions to Kansas wrestling history!
Hey, just some info... a Div. III program is non-scholarship. Those kids aren't getting free tuition or anything paid for by wrestling for a D-III program. It is about the equilavent as wrestling for the K-State or KU wrestling clubs.
I've got to say that I disagree with pretty much everything gutwrench said in his original post. As I've noted on several forums in the past, going to a DI school is not the end all, be all, of collegiate sports. Supposedly the best athletes go to DI schools, that assumption is incorrect in its notion. DI althletes tend to be the best becasue the schools they go to can afford to put them on scholarships. It is this reason why most of the so called "best" althetes go DI, they get full ride scholarships to participate in an event they like and for some sports i.e football, basketball, and so on, this exposure leads to possible professional careers. However in our beautiful sport, the best athletes don't always have to go to DI schools. Kansas is no exception to this. There are many and I do mean MANY, Kansas wrestlers who are not wreslting in DI right now by choice, who would fair very well in DI if they were there. Their "wrestling style" has nothing to do with it. Any wrestler can mold their style to one that will bring success to them. We in the business like to call it "learning"
Look at Zach Roberson, he was untested in high school, went to Iowa State and won a National Championship under coach Douglas. Can you honestly tell me that he didn't change any part of his style during the 5 years he was up there? My point is placing blame on the coaches and officials of this state for the reason why Kansas doesn't have as many DI athletes as other states is for lack of better words foolish and dumb. If Kansas as a state had a DI program at KSU or KU I can assure you there would be tons of your so called DI athletes here. As it is we don't have one, and many wrestlers here despite the amount of success they have really don't want to travel out of state just so they can participate in a DI level program knowing that there really is nothing for them after they graduate for example a professinal career.
If you need proof of just how well the "Kansas Style" as you like to put it, works, just look at how Team Kansas fairs every year at the National High School Championships, we've finshed very high as a team several years now, and thats with a population several times less than many other states.
Here is what it really comes down to ....
Maybe Kansas dids don't want to wrestle DI, did you ever think about that?
From Colby, KANSAS alone in the last four years:
Matt Murray- Nebraska, NCAA Runner-up last year
Eric Luedke- Colby Comm. College, 2X Juco National Champion(looking at D1 offers as we speak)
Here is another point to ponder. kansas is almost a month and 1/2 behind the other states when it comes to starting the freestyle season. We are one of the few states that has the extended kid series in the high school level and in my opinion this hurts us immensely when it comes to developing our freestyle skills. I have been the proponent of cutting off the state usaw series at 8th grade. Starting our freestyle season in March and getting our summer teams going much earlier.
We have some real quality kids that should be competing at the FILA world cadet and junior trials as opposed to trying to win their multiple kids championships.
Having coached in other states where the D1 recruits are higher, California and Nebraska, the difference i see is the emphasis on freestyle not continuing the folkstyle series.
Nebraska and Iowa also have tons of small college programs for their kids to choose from.
But, still here is an example of the limited monies. Meneely, double all american, recieved a very very very small amount to go to Iowa out of Skutt High School. There is just not a big enough pie to divy up. title 9 has been choking out wrestling and will continue to do so until we can get some sort of reform
What is WSU's status as far as women to men athletics. They have Volleyball there but no football. One could probably get something started thre. I just looked at
http://www.wichita.edu/my/visitors/ and saw for every women's sport they have a male sport with the exception of volleyball. Maybe the Newman folk can talk to WSU supporters. K-State is to big on Football and If Gay-U I mean KU would drop there.....Football team? Then maybe KU. Wichita is ideal.
Originally posted by TCarmona:
What is WSU's status as far as women to men athletics. They have Volleyball there but no football. One could probably get something started thre. I just looked at
http://www.wichita.edu/my/visitors/
and saw for every women's sport they have a male sport with the exception of volleyball. Maybe the Newman folk can talk to WSU supporters. K-State is to big on Football and If Gay-U I mean KU would drop there.....Football team? Then maybe KU. Wichita is ideal. If we are ever going to get a D1 program in this state it will likely have to be here, unless Title IX is over-turned. I agree, WSU is a wonderful opportunity waiting on the wrestling community to take the bull by the horns.
I stand corrected by Nigel and NurseKS. Thank you for your enlightening commentary. To summarize:
1) Wrestlers at Juco, NAIA, Division III and II are just as talented as NCAA Division I.
2) Wrestling at DI level is over-rated and certainly shouldn't be put on a higher plane.
3)Coaches paid to win in conferences like Big XII and Big Ten can't get Kansas kids because as Nigel says "Our kids don't want to wrestle for those schools". (And why would they when we've got Neosho, Labette, Colby and Ft. Hayes right here? Those schools are clearly better choices for our kids than say Nebraska, Oklahoma State and Iowa State.)
3)Kansas has a superior stye of wrestling than say Ohio, Missouri, Oklahoma, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Florida and California.
Kansas fans want to see a good tight waste-near arm for a few minutes because that's about as exciting as it gets. Who needs good level changes and scrambles when you can lock up a bar arm and hold a wrist and ride the hips for two minutes.
Hey folks, maybe you've been out on the prairie too long. Apparenly, the incessant wind has driven you completely mad.
And another thing, it's wrong to have 4 classes in this little state. Try following the example that CA, NY, NJ and IN have set. One class would get our top kids more attention. As it stands it's watered down and hard for coaches to see.
"If you can't be taken down and you can't be rode, you can't lose."
High School State, the Wichita Classic, Newton T.O.C. and several other big area trnys could be used as promotional events for getting surrounding businesses to donate towards the cause.
Originally posted by gutwrench1:
I stand corrected by Nigel and NurseKS. Thank you for your enlightening commentary. To summarize:
1) Wrestlers at Juco, NAIA, Division III and II are just as talented as NCAA Division I.
2) Wrestling at DI level is over-rated and certainly shouldn't be put on a higher plane.
3)Coaches paid to win in conferences like Big XII and Big Ten can't get Kansas kids because as Nigel says "Our kids don't want to wrestle for those schools". (And why would they when we've got Neosho, Labette, Colby and Ft. Hayes right here? Those schools are clearly better choices for our kids than say Nebraska, Oklahoma State and Iowa State.)
3)Kansas has a superior stye of wrestling than say Ohio, Missouri, Oklahoma, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Florida and California.
Kansas fans want to see a good tight waste-near arm for a few minutes because that's about as exciting as it gets. Who needs good level changes and scrambles when you can lock up a bar arm and hold a wrist and ride the hips for two minutes.
Hey folks, maybe you've been out on the prairie too long. Apparenly, the incessant wind has driven you completely mad.
And another thing, it's wrong to have 4 classes in this little state. Try following the example that CA, NY, NJ and IN have set. One class would get our top kids more attention. As it stands it's watered down and hard for coaches to see.
"If you can't be taken down and you can't be rode, you can't lose."
Maybe you should move to Iowa! That is a good place for those that either don't like it here or can't make it here.
Sptsfan, I like Kansas which is why I'm challenging thought leaders like you to evolve.
Originally posted by gutwrench1:
Sptsfan, I like Kansas which is why I'm challenging thought leaders like you to evolve.
Are you saying you want him to grow a tail?
I think DI's do look at Kansas guys, but then you got out of state tuition that kills some of these schools as well. For the most part I think the wrestlers turn down the "big dogs" not the other way around.
VS Vike Coach, I think you're missing the point.
As stated by someone else, if you look at D1 wrestlers in Iowa, many are from somewhere other than Iowa. Iowa State was mentioned.
Now look at college wrestling in general in Iowa. Take DIII. Because DIII doesn't give scholarships, you have a high number of in state wrestlers. Coincidentally, most DIII schools in Iowa have in state wrestlers (no out of state tuition). Another coincidence is that PA, IL, OH, and IA are four states that have close to 1/2 of all DIII wrestling schools. I'm guessing each of those states have high percentages of in state participants. Why?
Couple of reasons. 1st off, financial necessity. Why travel to another state to wrestle when in state tuition may be cheaper. Do people in Iowa love the state so much that they don't leave to pay out of state tuition? Of course not and I'm perfectly fine with that. 2nd reason has to deal with the college experience. Is the reason that the DIII athletes from Iowa are that much inferior that they can't cut it on the DI level or is it because they just want to get an education, enjoy college life, and wrestle because of their passion for the sport? I'm guessing both apply. I'm betting there are a few standouts in the DIII level that would have some sort of success at the DI level.
So, if that's true, why can't it be true for Kansas as well?
DI is the pinacle we all strive for when we're young, but when the time comes to make the decision, DI is not always the best option for us.
Prime example of a kid that is going to beat the odds - Lamar. Dad wrestled at Ft. Hays so you know where he's leaning. But Brady is a genius. I know. He was taking high school math classes while still in grade school (I student taught at Silver Lake). Now I'm not trying to slam on Lamar, but as it stands right now, I don't see him having an impact at the DI level immediately. Even if he doesn't at all, his academic performance will get him through no problem. He may never crack varsity, but he knows Nebraska is where he needs to be for his education. Brady is going places and I look forward to seeing him succeed.
Brady has aspirations beyond wrestling and Kansas and Nebraska will take him there. Trust me, I know that wrestling was SECOND in his thoughts.
And why can't it be the same for the other gentleman? Why can't it be that they have partials offered to them from the DI ranks and they opt to stay in Kansas because they can't afford the costs of a partial somewhere else?
There are some athletes that are out there that were similar to my situation. Mom and dad were flat broke. If it weren't for some of the parents in the Topeka Tornado club, I don't think I would have wrestled at all. When it came time to sign with a college, I chose Labette over a few other schools because it was close to home and if I was legitimately cut out for college wrestling, I wouldn't be losing a huge sum of money in the process. Plus if I did decide to wrestle on and it was going to cost me, I was only going to be paying for two years.
I'm betting that was the thought process of some of the kids that are DI talentwise, but just weren't sure if that was for them. The wrestlers mentioned weren't offered a DI scholarship? I don't know many, no lets say any, All Americans that were passed upon by DI schools. Are you saying those listed are the first? Please.....
By using your analogy of DI is the best, everything else is 2nd rate, that would mean that the DIII schools in Iowa are loaded with 2nd rate wrestlers from Iowa that couldn't cut it in the DI ranks. I refuse to believe it.
Wrestling is a vehicle for some to get where they want to go. Not everyone's destination is DI.
The out of state arguement used to be valid but it is becoming less of an issue for Big Ten and Big XII, etc...these fully funded programs get 9.9 scholarships and they can be used in-state or out-of-state. Many schools do not charge coaches the out-of-state rates.
Had an uncle once who was offered scholarship to KSU for baseball, but coach told him he would more than likely split time between someone already there. He went to a smaller college and played everyday.
The point is that maybe some of our wrestlers just want to have an impact from the word go at a smaller school and not wait 2 years to see varsity time at a big school.
After seeing Oak Park, MO wrestle I can agree that other states do have different styles but I don't necessarily think that is the reason Kansas doesn't have more D-I wrestlers.
I am not going to argue the fact that Kansas has a different style of wrestling but to blame the lack of D1 wrestlers on the style is in my opinion wrong.
Just a little information to think about
Oklahoma St. 12 of the 32 or 37.5% of the wrestlers are from Oklahoma
OU 10 of the 30 or 30% of the wrestlers are from Oklahoma
Nebraska 15 of the 39 or 38.5% wrestlers are from Nebraska
Iowa State 17 of the 27 or 63% of the wrestlers are from Iowa
Missouri 12 of the 31or 39% of the wrestlers are from Missouri
The rest of the teams roster are then made up of wrestlers from a variety of states which could lead us to argue that a teams roster is dominated by athletes from that state. So the lack of a D1 program in Kansas could be a reason for not as many D1 wrestlers.
Gutwrench you make some valid points but I also think that you are thinking of some things from the wrong angle.
Originally posted by gutwrench1:
1) Wrestlers at Juco, NAIA, Division III and II are just as talented as NCAA Division I.
I agree that most D1 wrestlers are better than most D2, D3, or Juco wrestlers.
Originally posted by gutwrench1:
3)Coaches paid to win in conferences like Big XII and Big Ten can't get Kansas kids because as Nigel says "Our kids don't want to wrestle for those schools". (And why would they when we've got Neosho, Labette, Colby and Ft. Hayes right here? Those schools are clearly better choices for our kids than say Nebraska, Oklahoma State and Iowa State.)
As others have stated many student athletes may choose not to wrestle D1. There are many things that may affect their decision, academics, financial, family, etc. Some of the schools you mentioned may be a better fit than a D1 school, and still allow the kids a chance to wrestle.
Originally posted by gutwrench1:
3)Kansas has a superior stye of wrestling than say Ohio, Missouri, Oklahoma, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Florida and California.
Kansas fans want to see a good tight waste-near arm for a few minutes because that's about as exciting as it gets. Who needs good level changes and scrambles when you can lock up a bar arm and hold a wrist and ride the hips for two minutes.
I personally like to see a good low scoring match between two talented opponents. I don't mind it if someone is riding on top, as long as they are staying busy. But of course I might be in the minority hear beacause I also like a good 10-7 defensive football game to watch as well.
Originally posted by gutwrench1:
Hey folks, maybe you've been out on the prairie too long. Apparenly, the incessant wind has driven you completely mad.
I might be crazy because I like the wind. In fact that is one of the things I miss most about Western Kansas in the summer time.
Originally posted by gutwrench1:
1) And another thing, it's wrong to have 4 classes in this little state. Try following the example that CA, NY, NJ and IN have set. One class would get our top kids more attention. As it stands it's watered down and hard for coaches to see.
5)I don't think 1 class would do anything positive for our kids. Kansas's policy is to allow more kids to have success. Just think of how many great wrestlers from the other states never got a chance to go to state. I am not saying they are wrong or we are right, it is just a different philosophy.
Originally posted by gutwrench1:
"If you can't be taken down and you can't be rode, you can't lose."
Unless you get reversed to back and pinned!
Quite simply, it is silly to think the D1 schools are running around handing out scolarships. If a prospect is interested in attending a certain school, making the coaches and school aware is extremely important. There are literally hundreds of thousands of kids in high school athletics, recruiters cannot logistically screen them all, and one thing that is impossible to ascertain from a high school record, is the desire to wrestle in college. If a kid wants to go somewhere he needs to make a pest of himself, the coach needs to see him enough before signing time.
Also evidenced by the fact that the LCC Cardinals are national champs , and Neosho and Colby had strong showings in the National tournament, is a testament in itself to the caliber of Kansas wrestling. Scoffing at community college wrestling is ignorance,,Rulon Gardner was a JuCo wrestler, and he was pretty good, pretty **** good.
Kids need guidance in properly approaching colleges, coaches and parents need to get on the ball and Kansas will be well represented, style has nothing to do with it.
Gibby:
My point wasn't that D-I is the best -- it is percieved that way.
I love D-III wrestling (as well as everyother level). But D-I is the top level, it's the one that kids dream of doing and it gets the most notice. In Kansas, basketball kids grow up wanting to be Jayhawks and football kids grow up wanting to be Wildcats. Do they all make it? No, but that's what sucks them in.
There is nothing like that in Kansas. There is no bigtime D-I program to hang your hat on, the kind that will bring in 4,000 fans on a Friday night in January, including lots and lots of kids. Then they see that kind of wrestling, the coaches do and so do the referees.
When I moved back this season (and this is not meant to be derogitory) but the difference in style between seven years in Kansas and being back in Iowa was night and day. The Iowa kids (even mine) wrestled like college wrestlers, at least that style. Singles, doubles, stand-ups; few if any throws; no Granby system (or very little), can't turn them then cut them and take them down; wear them down.
Kansas isn't like that. It's a different style altogether. And
Whoa -- not sure why that happened....
As I was saying, Kansas isn't like that. It's a different style altogether. And that's not a bad thing, but one reason Kansas kids aren't that hot of commodities at the upper levels of college wrestling (which was the point of this post I thought) is because their college level fundementals aren't as good as kids from Iowa, Oklahoma, Ohio or places like that.
My kids go to Iowa meets and they want to wrestle like Paul Bradley, or they go to Iowa State meets and want to wrestle like the Paulson twins. Kansas wrestlers don't have that chance most of the time and it hurts; I said that the whole time I was down there. You need that role model, that (if you'll pardon the reference) Wayne Simien to look up to.
This not a Kansas vs. everyone else issue Gibby and it's not me bashing Kansas because I'm back in Iowa Richard (wherever you are!). I've been around this sport most of my life and had the honor to coach in both places. Kansas wrestling isn't wrong --- it's different. And if going D-I isn't a long-range goal, that cool. I greatly admire the devotion the Kansas wrestling community has for the sport and I hope that never changes.
Keep up the good work all!
VS Vike Coach--your previous post was an excellent diversion to your signature. It looked as if it was done on purpose. Very clever!!
Originally posted by gutwrench1:
The out of state arguement used to be valid but it is becoming less of an issue for Big Ten and Big XII, etc...these fully funded programs get 9.9 scholarships and they can be used in-state or out-of-state. Many schools do not charge coaches the out-of-state rates.
Umm... yes they do! You know how successful the OU football program is? Did you know that THEY charge out-of-state tuition for every kid on that roster not from the state of Oklahoma? What do you think that wrestling teams are an exception?
Yes, they do have 9.9 scholarships to give out, HOWEVER, they still have a budget. If they are filled with out-of-state kids, it drains their money from other areas (like transportation and entry fees).
One other thing to consider: Emporia State University is one of the greatest teaching schools in the country. Now, if you wanted to be a teacher (not an NFL player), and ESU offered you a full-ride scholarship to play football, and KSU (whose education program is lacking) offered you a partial, are you saying that it is stupid not to go to KSU?
I have one question:
Is it bad to know how to ride? Because I believe college does award riding time.
Riding is not bad, look at Iowa in the old days. Thye dominated on top. Top position is a plus, just not as important as being great on your feet and good at escaping.
I agree that most D1 wrestlers are better than wrestlers in lower levels, but not that much better. Keep in mind that there are only around 300 schools in all divisions that have wrestling programs. That's not very many teams for all the good wrestlers there are. So the level of skill isn't that much different between the divisions.
I don’t about other coaches, but I feel the original post made by gutwrench was an insult to coaches and referees in Kansas . Who is gutwrench, what are his credentials, and what qualifies him as an expert on areas of coaching and officiating in Kansas?
gutwrench1
This is one of the most ridiculous, and I might add, ignorant post I have seen on this forum. Have you done your homework on wrestling or are you just speaking off the cuff? Before you come on this forum and criticize coaches and referees with a blanket statement like that you might think about doing a little research to support your statement before you hit the post reply button.
Just what division one coaches you are so intimately connected with that gave you your information of their personal insight on Kansas Wrestling, and the incompetency of Kansas coaching? As for your comment on riding, I was still under the impression that riding time was still scored at the collegiate level, so why wouldn’t a coach teach riding skills to his wrestlers? Riding is still an essential part of folkstyle wrestling, so it would be asinine, actually, ignorant for coaches not to teach the skill. I might add that I don’t care for riding, but I teach the skill regardless. If you think Kansas is bad about riding, you might consider taking a trip to Oklahoma and view the mastery of riding. Oh, I might also mention OSU the defending NCAA champions are some the best at riding in the nation. True riding is not stalling! Riding is the ability to keep a person under control while you apply a pinning combination. But, there are those that just hang on, but that is called stalling, and not riding.
To address the whole Division I issue. Again, you haven’t done much thinking about this topic. Use some simple logic here. How many high schools are there in the state of Kansas? How many high school are there in the United States? Did you realize that less than one percent of high school athletes (nation wide) make it as Division I athletes? Do you also realize that Kansas athletes don’t even account for even one half percent of our nations athletes.
In Kansas we have 64-321A, 64-4A, 32-5A, 32-6A schools (not counting smaller schools) for a grand total of 192 high schools. In California alone there are over 3000 schools. (Approximate population of Cali. is 40 million). So, which state is more likely to produce Division I athletes?
Real simple just look at the population of Kansas as compared to the United States as a whole.
*Approximate population of the United States = 300,000,000 people
*Approximate population of Kansas = 3, 000, 000 people
I would say that there is a little competition out there wouldn’t you.
Plain and simple not many kids have Division I abilities.
Your original post somewhat implies that you are one of those whiners in the stands that think they know what the solution is to every sport, but very seldom do. As I call it a jack of all trades and a master of none. So, before you come on here and cast stones at the coaches and referees. Think about this. Do you really know what the HELL your talking about?
I'm not going to agree with everything Gutwrench said, but I think he makes a good point about KS kids needing to improve on their feet. I did OK in high school, but I'm embarassed to look back at tapes of high school matches. My stance was terrible, my shots were average at best, and I basically only had 1 set-up. But as ugly as it was, it worked for high school.
Then you get to college, and realize how hard it really is to take down a quality opponent. I guess that's where my earlier comment came from about the sportsmanship of the takedown & let him/her up mentality -- because I was on the wrong side of that a couple of times in college. My most humiliating loss ever was 21-7. If this guy could have just convinced himself that he could turn me, we could have had a respectable 4-2 match. But NO, he had to put on a takedown clinic. In hindsight, this was probably the best thing that ever happened to me in college.
I still don't like kids who take someone down and let them up if they are doing it to a clearly inferior opponent. But if you can do it to a good opponent, then more power to you. It is a lot more fun to watch 2 quality wrestlers on their feet than in any other position (in my opinion anyway).
my thoughts - not to offend or invoke displeasure, nor are they intended to impune the integrity of any specific individual(s) - just for discussion:
1) Kansas wrestling can/needs to be more aggressive, particularly on takedowns. Still far too many head ties and headlocks, particularly in the east. Solution: start at kids level and, as difficult as it may seem, don't teach a headlock until age 13. :-)
2) Kansas wrestling can /needs to be more aggressive from the top. Far too many hip huggers and spiral riders. Yes, I appreciate one who can ride and float, but, as the high school rules indicate, the top wrestler needs to aggressively pursue scoring opportunities by moving off the hips,etc, etc. There was a reason the national federation high schools moved away from riding time.
3) Coaches teach their wrestlers how to wrestle. Far too many wrestlers, even at State level, are passive on their feet. That's fine and great if that's the way one wants to win.
4) Far too many referees in this state (and yes, I have refereed) do not call stalling aggressively or consistently. Far too many coaches continue to select referees to officiate who do so. This may sound harsh on referees, but if I've done my job as a coach and my wrestler is busting his/her tail to score but is consistently 'stalled' out, then why can't I demand that same level of professionalism from my referee? Ever notice the difference between a college official and a state one? Calling the takedown, near fall, etc is the easy part.
5) D1 wrestlers, for the most part, are better atheletes and wrestlers. That's why they're D1. That does NOT impune the ability of any DII etc, as pointed out in earlier posts, many quality wrestlers CHOSE to go to lower level, not necessarily lower competition, schools. This argument is more like ice cream flavors...which is better vanilla or choclate.
6) I would like to see an ALL Class competition. No, I don't want to walk down the prim rose path of Grand State or Team Duals. But if larger states can do it, why can't we? Yes, some kids may not get the chance to compete at a state level, but is that necessarily bad? Make it a 64 man bracket based on an All regional selection process and wrestle for 4 days...now THAT's wrestling.
7) Final thought: Kansas wrestling is just as good as any other state, if not better than many. There are particular regional styles, east, west, north, south that ARE obvious. Whether or not these styles translate into collegiate level ability is purely conjuncture...reference the ice cream argument earlier.
Tim Shea
I think gutwrench misread what I said, so I will cover it again.
1. On the whole DI athletes tend to be better than those divisions below them, however as I pointed out there are numorous examples of kids wrestling right now in lower divisions that can and do beat their DI counterparts.
2. I never said DI wrestling was over rated, not sure where you got that.
3. That is exactly what I said on there, some Kansas kids don't want to wrestle at DI schools because maybe they don't like what these school have to offer them in terms of academics, programs, etc. Look at Ross Taplin, he could go DI but hes going to UNO because he likes the program they have up there and Abilene already has two graudates up there. My point in this whole thing is.. Gutwrentch maybe you should consider that some kids have more important things on their mind than wrestling at a DI school that they don't like. As i've said already there really isn't a compeling reason to wrestle in DI in the sport of wrestling, unless you just like the compeition. Being an All-American in College wrestling, at best might land you a few endorsement deals, but there really isn't a professional career after college wrestling, therefore our kids choose schools that they want to go to for school.
As an official I get to see everything that happens in our sport week after week, and I agree that we as a community really should cut down even more on top riding, I myself call stalling very aggressively, but I cannot control what other officials do, its their opinion when they are on the mat that matters, its within the rules and they are justified to call whatever they see fit. Personally I would love to see USAWKS and NFHS make the standing headlock illegal, i've been for this for many years now, it is a pathetic move usually only used in two situations. 1. The guy is desperate, 2. Its the ONLY move he will use. Its sad when i'm on the mat and the coach from the opponent is telling his wrestler to watch out for the headlock before we even start the match.
The headlock thing cracks me up because there were about 3 or 4 state championship matches won on a headlock!
Well said Tim Shea --- and hearty congrats on first season at the Creek!!!!
JLH
Just to point out 1 thing.
THERE WILL NEVER BE AN ALL STATE/GRAND STATE EVENT IN KANSAS AGAIN.
We've been over this issue at least twice every year for the last 9 years and not one bit of difference has been made. Isn't it about time we stop wishing for this event to happen , when we all know very well that KSHSAA would never approve it? Rick Bowden has made it VERY clear that these types of events are not going to happen because of the time and money involved as such. If one sport has it then every other sport will have it and thats just not feasible. So please people can we just drop the whole 1 class arguement.
The big picture is that the lack of a D1 program kills the number of kids who wrestle D1. I wrestled D2 at a school in nebraska and probably 3/4 of the team were from Kansas. I have seen some of the wrestlers that are on some of these D1 programs and they are very average at best. In open tournaments we beat D1 kids all the time. If Kansas were to get a D1 program the shear numbers of Kansas kids wrestling D1 would increase. I don't think style is an issue. Defense and riding are key components to college wrestling. A college match between two good D1 wrestlers usually comes down to defense on your feet and if they can secure riding time. The complaint about out of state tuition is alos weak. Most schools give in state tuition to those athlets who have above average gpa's and act scores. the bottom line is that the lack of D1 wrestlers from Kansas is due to the fact of a lack of D1 programs.
Eagle1,
Will you give us some examples of D2 beating D1 all of the time. During the 2003-2004 year, Nebraska beat Kearney 46-0 in a dual. We know Kearney is always a very good D2 team, but there was a big difference between D1 Nebraska and D2 Kearney. I'm not saying a D2 wrestler doesn't or can't beat a D1 wrestler, but I can't buy the all the time statement.
Kansas has many kids in D1 programs, we do fine for our population. Is there room for improvement?Of course!!
First of all, I'm not talking about duals. The very best D1 wrestlers will kill DII wrestlers, I said nothing to that effect. What I was talking about was in open tournaments. DII wrestlers beat D1 wrestlers all the time in open tournaments. The D1 wrestlers that get beat are the reshits, freshman, and average D1 wrestlers. These are the kind of wrestlers that a D1 program in Kansas would allow for more D1 wrestlers.
Some really great posts on this subject. Coach Neil, your comments are so appreciated.
I coached for two seasons in Southern California, the wrestling was not that much better than here, but the overall number of good kids were, just by sheer population
Gutwrench-just who are ya?
A couple years back, i sat with Chad Flores of Kearney and Silver Lake 2xchamp at the UNO open and we discussed the difference between the D1 and D2 guys. Mostly he felt was the overall competition in the room that they faced daily.
the biggest obvious difference was in the heavies, the D1 guys definitely were more athletic, looking like NFL linebackers and d-end types, and the D2 guys were more doughboy build.
Coach Shea, some good points. I believe in Huskerland wrestling in nebraska headlocks are illegal in their divisions lower than 12 yrs of age and they start all periods on their feet. It does help in the long run.
I wouldn't call open tournaments a good measure of D1 vs D2. Opens contain redshirts, walk-ons or the second and third string guys. You take the Top D-1 guys vs D-2. D-1 would win well over 90% of time.
Kansas does ok for its population in sending kids to D-1. But look at your top three wrestling states in my opinion Pennsylvania, Ohio and New Jersey. These states have populations 3-4 times the size of Kansas, but probably produce 20 times the amount of college wrestlers.
A few reasons why Kansas wrestlers don't get recruited as highly.
1. Tough to measure quality of state champions, due to 4 classes in a small population state. Some state champions are relatively weak in KS.
College coaches are only going to give scholarships to the real deal. Why spend time to travel and recruit in Kansas when your not sure of the product.
2. Lack of D1 exposure in Kansas. Kansas kids do not see college wrestling nor read about it.
Seeing high level of wrestling can be great teaching and motivating tips. Kansas kids do not get it. If K-state had a team, interest in college wrestlign would spike. At the college level, Kansas is a big basketball state.
3. Style has little to do with it. I agree with some of other posts that Kansas is a riding state but sometimes the kids lack the neutral takedown skills.
The college wrestling game emphasizes much more riding. More time is spent on the mat and you're rewarded for it. Most college coaches would say they have to teach new recruits how to ride due to lack of skills coming in. I've seen posts on Missouri website asking the same question. There response was MO kids weren't recruited due to the lack of riding skills.
"I've seen posts on Missouri website asking the same question. There response was MO kids weren't recruited due to the lack of riding skills."
LMAO!!!!! Great example!
Comparatively speaking, Kansas does well nationally. Particularly when you consider the state population. We always do well as a team at the Senior Nationals and at Fargo, usually finishing in the top ten. We also do well in the National Duals, we even beat California for third in 2001 placing behind Oklahoma and Ohio. We usually finish in the top ten there as well. When you look at a comparable state, population-wise like Oklahoma, you see the difference. Oklahoma has won like 8 of the last 10 National Duals Championships and almost always places in the top five at Nationals with even better success at Fargo. Kansas has great wrestlers but for every one of them, Oklahoma has 5-10. For
every Zach Roberson or Eric Akin that Kansas produces, Oklahoma produces 5-10. The question is why? More appropriately, to answer the question of the initial post, is why does Kansas not produce as many Robersons, kids that can win a DI title or All-American honor? The answer definately does not, in my opinion, have anything to do with high school coaches or officials. I have HEARD that they emphasize more riding and pinning out in Western Kansas which would compromise the developement of "feet" wrestling, but that is definately not the case in most places. As someone who has coached high school wrestling in Oklahoma and Kansas, I believe the difference to be in Junior High. Oklahoma schools run their Junior High programs like we run our High School programs so our kids are already behind Oklahoma when they get into high school. Junior High wrestling in Oklahoma is serious business. Junior High wrestling in Kansas is a joke, Wichita does not even have junior high wrestling. We run our junior high programs worse than some kids programs and that is why some kids do not even wrestle for their junior highs and instead stay on the kid's circuit. Just a thought. What do you think?
Originally posted by Wrestling Scholar:
Most college coaches would say they have to teach new recruits how to ride due to lack of skills coming in.
In speaking with Coach Smith from MU at camps, he has said almost the exact same thing, and is one reason he has been recruiting in Kansas.
agree with post from wsewc....definitely jr high and kids are the start points for SOLID FUNDAMENTALS in wrestling (sort of like reading is to academics isn't it?). to me, that is where kids learn that aggressive wrestling from all positions is INGRAINED into the psyche of the wrestler.
would be very, very interesting to poll number of state champs/placers and see how many of them DID NOT start out in a solid jr hi or kids program... it happens, but the odds are so overwhelming in support of the younger programs developing great wrestlers.
tim shea
Laurice Reagans, WSE. Started out his freshman year. Beat a state champ to win it all his junior year.
There's one example.
The 103 lber from Emporia. State runner up.
Any other examples?
WSEWC
I agree with you that our Jr. High programs are not the equivalent of that of other states. Fortunately, I have a great Jr. High coach heading up our program and he is always very receptive to what we do at the high school. Unfortunately, I would imagine that there is some friction between coaches in other districts as to what should be taught at the Jr. High level. But, I don’t think there is one lone problem or one lone solution to increasing the competitiveness of our state’s wrestling programs.
Kansas deserves more credit than it receives on the national level of wrestling. In terms of the state as whole (Eastern, Central, and Western), Kansas is still somewhat in the infancy stage for the sport of wrestling. If memory serves me correctly, wrestling began in the early-to-mid 1930’s in western Kansas. I guessing here, but I don’t think wrestling really got going in the eastern part of the state until the mid 60’s. I know it didn’t get started until 1972-73 at my alma mater (Santa Fe Trail). So, the sport hasn’t exactly reached maturity yet, but I also feel there are many great things to come for Kansas wrestling.
I think one of the uphill battles we fight here in Kansas is against the realm of basketball (forgive me wrestling fans, I didn’t want to use that dirty word, but I had to). I think we have definitely (note the correct spelling of definitely, there is no (a) in the word, thank God for spell check) made up some ground in this area, but we have a ways to go. I know one of the battles I fight as a wrestling coach is that every kid in the school thinks, or at least their parents think that they are the second coming of Michael Jordan. In the past we have had kids trying out for the basketball team that are 5’10 and 260 pounds. Some of these kids have a hard time running the distance of the floor in under a minute. What I see as a major problem is that these kids are too scared, or maybe too lazy to go out for a sport that requires so much hard work. I’m sure that like myself many other coaches have heard comments from kids that they have never worked so hard in other sports as they had to in wrestling. Lastly, and I know I’m not the only one to ever do this, but as wrestling coaches we need to make the sport more viewer friendly by making it understandable to perspective fans. Most people (non-wrestling people) don’t understand what is means to secure a takedown or what a nearfall count is, so we need to educate them. In the past during the season beginning scrimmages we have put on a short clinic for the crowd so that they could understand at least some of the calls and it seemed to help raise interest among those watching. I know none of us have the ultimate solution, but patience is a virtue.
5 examples, Laurice Reagans, grad., (state champ), Kelvin Patterson, 12, (2x reg. champ, 2x state placer), Bobby Hurd, 11, (16U kid's state champ, HS state placer), Mario Martinez, 11, (state qual. as first year wrestler), Timothy Adams, 10, (state qual., Reagan's cousin).
What do they all have in common:
1. Never wrestled before high school.
2. Wrestled for WSE, population ~1800.
3. Great athletes, in other words exceptions.
If they had started wrestling before HS, they would have all been multiple champs, I would think, and I know Reagans was hurt his senior year or he probably would have been.
I have to disagree with Tim Shea on one point,not teaching a kid a"cheap move" ie: cowcatcher, front headlock, head and arm, in the younger years prevents them from recognizing one when it is being applied. I have seen many kids pinned with one of these combinations, because they never saw them in practice, and didnt even know what was hitting them. If they dont practice applying moves like that , they also will not be adept at recognizing and countering them.
just thoughts:
as to those who did well in wrestling starting in high school...GREAT!!! but, my point was that MOST will have difficulties..some, such as these, can overcome lack of mat experience - which is probably the most critical element in later success - with outstanding physical skills and outstanding coaching. when those two are mixed it's virtually unbeatable.
as to not teaching healocks, cowcatchers, etc. it's the EMPHASIS on those particular moves, usually through well meaning dads or coaches, and the OVER-RELIANCE on those moves by the youngsters that can stymie fundamental development. yes, wrestlers need to recognize moves...but by teaching the fundamentals of inside positioning, solid base, movement, level change, angles of attack,etc, many of those same 'power' moves are simply negated. where it tears you apart is when you see kids hit stiffer competition and lose due to that over reliance. i think what happens most is that many coaches/kids figure 'why fix it if it works?' without looking deeper than the next opponent.
as to the maturity of the sport in kansas, i absolutely agree with coach neil's assessment of the 'basketball' phenomenon. unfortunately, too many of our peers in the basketball community do prospective athletes an injustice when they don't lay the cards on the table and direct the young man/woman to the wrestling room.
another thought: the 'no cut' policy that many schools maintain actually hurts wrestling (in which the no cut rule simply doesn't apply due to the nature/structure of the sport) because far too many basketball programs, particularly in smaller schools, will have 30 kids out and most with little or no playing time...
Tim Shea
Here is (as I understand) the list of current Kansas seniors attending D-I programs to wrestle next year:
Neil Cisper, St. Thomas Aquinas, PENN
Brady LaMar, Silver Lake, NEBRAKSA
Chris Pursel, ACCHS, IOWA STATE
Ryan Sonderegger, SM East, MISSOURI
Who am I missing?
Hmmmmmm lets see here Larry Perez stuck the majority of his oppponents with the snake. That move is taught at a very young age, and I know he hasnt pinned shumate with it but it has gotten him 2 titles and i'm sure it got him into the finals up there in Fargo last summer. So you go ahead and tell me that those moves hurt you as you get older. I think it is all in how you use them.
What the hell is the snake?
I think sometimes its called the bulldog.
Haven't seen any releases on Pursel and Sondregger signing with these schools. Are you sure about that those are official? Maybe these are walk-ons which it sounds like the case might be with Lamar.
Easy WSEWC,
Reagans was a state champ his junior year and granted, he was hurt and didn't finish the season his senior year, it doesn't mean he would have been a state champ.
When Laurice was a junior, he wrestled a tough tourney. Everyone that he wrestled had beaten him that year. We went into the tourney with the mindset that you only have to beat a person once to be a state champ.
That strategy, along with believing it and peaking at the right time was the essential ingredients. He came into the tourney under the radar and when it was all said and done, most people left wondering, "where'd he come from?" No one prepared for him because they had already beaten him. A few multiple times.
When he came off the mat, he smiled and said, "you're right coach, you only have to beat 'em once to be a champ."
That whole strategy would have had to of changed his senior year. I don't know what the strategy was, but it didn't matter - he got hurt.
It's a whole different mindset to repeat. I don't know if all the ingredients needed to repeat were in place. It's much tougher coming in with everyone shooting to upset you.
The 2nd one is definitely tougher than the 1st.
I have never seen any statistics, numbers or percentages from a reliable source that says Kansas wrestlers get recruited less for DI schools than any other state. Are you guys sure they are not or are you just assuming they aren't. I can think of Kansas wrestlers who are now wrestling at Nebraska, Oklahoma, Missouri, Iowa, Iowa State, Northern Colorado, Stanford, Oregon, and Air Force.
mamasawn
How many of our seniors in the great class 2005 of are going on to wreslte DI? I count Cisper and Lamar, and Lamar is academic. What about 4x Baldridge, Cornejo, Grater, Taplin...you know the guys we've been hearing about for 4 years on this site? Not that there's anything wrong with DII,III, NAIA and JUCO. But, the best of our best are not going to DI.
Dumbest topic I have ever seen on here. I coached wrestling as a head coach for about 25 years in this state. Met a lot of college coaches in my time. I never heard one of them say a bad word about Kansas Wrestling. Some of the most famous names in the history of the sport have come from Kansas and will in the future as well. The only thing wrong with Kansas is the big inferiority complex people have about things here. We are like lions eating our own young. I could name about a hundred former college wrestlers D1 mostly but what would be the point. By the way the world does not revolve around D1 wrestling. Oh a lot of people say Utah wrestling is bad too, cept for those Sandersons. Man this is out there for sure. I shouldn't even have commented on it cause it keeps the thread going but man this is bad.
Gutwrench-I don't know how many are going DI. I also don't know why the kids you mentioned are not wrestling DI nor do I know how many of them had offers from DI schools. What I'd like to know is how many kids from year to year at DI programs come from Kansas and how does that compare to other states? Do you know?
HOW MANY DI PROGRAMS ARE THERE? NCAA WEB SITE SAYS 85. HOW MANY HIGHSCHOOL SENIORS WRESTLE?
BY THE WAY. HOW MANY KS SENIORS THAT WANT TO WRESTLE IN COLLEGE HAVE REGISTERED WITH THE NCAA CLEARING HOUSE AND HAVE TAKEN ACT'S OR SAT'S. THEY SHOULD HAVE REGISTERED THEIR JR. YEAR. AND SHOULD HAVE TAKEN THE ACT THREE TIMES BY NOW. AND CHECK THEIR CORE CURRICULM CLASSES, HOW MANY MEET THE CLEARING HOUSE REQUIRMENTS? THERE ARE SO FEW DI PROGRAMS AND SO MANY WRESTLERS THAT A SIMPLE GPA CAN KEEP A KID OUT. DI NOT ONLY WANTS GREAT ATHLETES BUT THEY HAVE TO HAVE GREAT STUDENTS AS WELL.
Where is Cornejo going Gut?
I think kansas kids have enough talent to go D1. However there isn't any big tournments for us to travel to because the state of kansas won't let us.Thats how so many kids get overlooked that are D1 big example Andrew Ubben TJ Stabb and many more from the class of 2002 we don't get the attention we deserve they need to get this fixed. For are future kids that are going to be great. Example for this year Tristen Deshazzer sorry about the spelling he needs to go outside of kansas and wrestle the best. Go to the RTC in Reno the Beast of the East the Iron Man just one that will give us the looks from D1 programs. This was a very talented class this year. Very happy to say I'm from kansas.
I would like to have Cornejo take a look at Appalchian State University I think he could come in and do a great job.
App State is a great school in the beautiful North Carolina, Tennessee Mountains. Joe would have a definite, dramatic, and immediate impact at this school. They wrestle some tough competition as well that could get him immediate recognition on a national level.
If KSHAA would loosen their restrictions on KS wrestling (i.e. Let coaches work with their wrestlers during freestyle season, Let them go to big tough tournaments that are out of state) Then their would be more wrestlers recruited to DI schools.
I think the top wrestlers in KS definitely have a good shot at being successful at DI.
Jacob Klein, Joe Johnston, and Shawn Bunch all seem to be doing well.
last thought: i'm in iowa right now and they think that KS wrestling is crap. some people up here think that if your a SQ in iowa you could win state in KS.
obviously i don't agree with them.
Former Carrol 152
Iowa is good, but not that good. Wrestled a lot of Iowa state placers when I was in college and I won a majority of them. Had a lot of kids from Iowa on our team, who always bragged about how good Iowa was. They do as about as well or similar at the National level as KS. Kansas has even fared much better at SR National tournament than Iowa over the past years.
Look how successful Kansas kids are doing this weekend at NCAA. 2 in semis and 4 in the quarters at this point.
Good comparison of surrounding states with wrestlers at NCAA's.
KS 7 (zero Di programs)
Iowa 12 (3 D1 Progrmams)
CO 6 (zero D1 Programs)
OK 6 (2 Big Time D1 programs)
MO 5 (1 D1 program)
NE ? (1 D1 Program)
Maybe the grass isn't greener on the other side and Kansas kids are recruited as well local states with similar populations.
I see a lot of talk on how good Oklahoma wrestling is but see KS has more kids at the NCAA's than the Mighty Oklahoma.
2 KS. WRESTLERS IN THE NCAA FINALS. I BELIEVE THAT PUTS THE STATE WAY ABOVE AVERAGE REPRESENTATION. BAG ON IT ALL YOU LIKE , NUMERICALLY WITH 40 PERCENT OF THE TOTAL GUYS PARTICIPATING AT THAT LEVEL IN THE CHAMPIONSHIP FINALS, YOU WOULD BE HARD PRESSED TO DO BETTER. THERE WERE 2 LAST YEAR, AS WELL. MAYBE SOMEWHERE THE D1 GUYS MAY BE CONSIDERING A CLOSER LOOK AT KS. WRESTLERS.
Originally posted by mike fairleigh:
2 KS. WRESTLERS IN THE NCAA FINALS. I BELIEVE THAT PUTS THE STATE WAY ABOVE AVERAGE REPRESENTATION. BAG ON IT ALL YOU LIKE , NUMERICALLY WITH 40 PERCENT OF THE TOTAL GUYS PARTICIPATING AT THAT LEVEL IN THE CHAMPIONSHIP FINALS, YOU WOULD BE HARD PRESSED TO DO BETTER. THERE WERE 2 LAST YEAR, AS WELL. MAYBE SOMEWHERE THE D1 GUYS MAY BE CONSIDERING A CLOSER LOOK AT KS. WRESTLERS.
Maybe our two finalists were in brackets where they could simply ride their way to the finals and not have to work from their feet.
don't know about Bunch, but Johnston's route to the finals was not quite as you said, all he had to do was beat the no. 5 seed, percival of Ohio, and the #1 seed, tirapelle, of Illinois. the match with Tirapelle was decided by Johnston taking him down in the second period, then choosing to start in the neutral position, and taking him down again. If all Ks. wrestlers are mud turtles when it comes to takedowns, how did that happen? The fact is, even if you get a relatively "easy" draw, the whole supposed point of this thread seems to be that D1 guys are just so good that they could beat God and that no Kansas wrestler is fit to shine their shoes. That is just not the case, and I would submit to you that the performance of the Kansas competitors in the last 2 NCAA seasons pretty well bear that out. (By the way, this is not D. Fairleigh, but his Dad.)
Don't worry, only gutwrench thinks that.
I don't know about you guys but riding wasn't a factor at all in the Finals, all they did was wrestle on their feet
Alex
Originally posted by Bronco Wrestler:
I don't know about you guys but riding wasn't a factor at all in the Finals, all they did was wrestle on their feet
Alex
thus there were no riding time points awarded, in gutwrenches world that is
Originally posted by Bronco Wrestler:
I don't know about you guys but riding wasn't a factor at all in the Finals, all they did was wrestle on their feet
Alex
This is simply a false statement and an inaccurate analogy. I was in the St. Louis and watched the finals and the ability to ride an opponent definetly attributed to the outcome of several matches. In the Lee - Bunch match, Lee's ability to ride Bunch and trap Bunch's left leg eliminated much of Bunch's offense. Bunch was unable to utilize his explosive speed and quickness.
In the final matches riding time was a factor in six (6) of the ten (10) matches allowing the champion to control the match.
Championship Finals
125 Pounds
Joe Dubuque (Indiana) dec. Kyle Ott (Illinois), 2-0
With riding time Dubuque wins 2-0 133 Pounds
Travis Lee (Cornell) dec. Shawn Bunch (Edinboro), 6-3
With riding time, Lee wins 6-3 141 Pounds
Teyon Ware (Oklahoma) dec. Nate Gallick (Iowa State), 3-2
No Riding Time
149 Pounds
Zack Esposito (Oklahoma State) dec. Phillip Simpson (Army), 5-2
With riding time, Esposito wins 5-2 157 Pounds
Ryan Bertin (Michigan) dec. Joe Johnston (Iowa), 8-5
With riding time Bertin wins 8-5 165 Pounds
Johny Hendricks (Oklahoma State) dec. Mark Perry (Iowa), 5-2
With riding time Hendricks wins 5-2 174 Pounds
Chris Pendleton (Oklahoma State) dec. Ben Askren (Missouri), 10-5
With riding time Pendleton wins 10-5 184 Pounds
Greg Jones (West Virginia) dec. Tyler Baier (Cornell)
No Riding Time
197 Pounds
Jake Rosholt (Oklahoma State) dec. Sean Stender (Northern Iowa), 5-4
No Riding Time
285 Pounds
Steve Mocco (Oklahoma State) dec. Cole Konrad (Minnesota), 3-1 SV
Ok -- this is my last post on this subject, and it's one -- as someone who's coached in Kansas and RESPECTS the coaches and wrestlers here -- that I feel I can speak to with some level of objective intelligence.
Kids like Eric Akin, Joe Johnston, Zach Robeson, Scott Coleman, Shawn Bunch, Matt Murray, Josh Carroll and others are and were exceptional talents. No one is denying that, and no matter what state they are from, they would have been exceptional talents. That isn't even the point of debate at this point.
What we're talking about here is a lack of exposure of college wrestling to the rank and file Kansas high school wrestler. During my time there I saw many talented wrestlers whose careers ended in Hays or Wichita because the idea of college wrestling probably never really occured to them.
But when you've only got one (well, two now) four-year schools with the sport, what do yo expect. Kids of this same level of talent in Iowa or Oklahoma or Pennsylania, or wherever have other options. They can easily get exposed to the sport at a higher level at a young age and can aspire to it.
Having college wrestling in your state and area does raise the level of the sport. Waverly, Iowa is home to both Wartburg College (one of the powers of Division III wrestling) and the Class 3A (combine 6A & 5A) Waverly-Shell Rock High School which won the State tournament this year. Along with being the home of the Iowa Hawkeyes, Iowa City is also home to City and West Highs, annually two of the top five to 10 teams in 3A. The University of Northern Iowa is located in the Waterloo/Cedar Falls metro area, home to Cedar Falls High and Dan Gable's alma mater, Waterloo West.
The fact is that Kansas wrestling is pretty good in some ways. Like most states there are some tremendous individuals. But for the overall level to improve, college wrestling needs to become bigger in the state. I felt that when I coached in Kansas and I feel it even stronger today. But it's not going to happen through self-justifying posts here and it's not going to happen without a lot of hard work.
Keep up the good work Kansas and then do a little more.
VS Vike Coach,
I think you are missing the original point of the post. Gutwrench stated that the way Kansas coaches and officiates its wrestling holds our kids back at the national level. These posts are simply rebuttals to his unjustified opinions. I would think that everyone on this forum would love to see Kansas develop more 4 year wrestling programs and would absolutely be supportive of a D1 program.
Mr. Salyer I was being sarcastic in my post, I seen man of the finalist riding, and doing a good job at it
u mean stalling in the finals. although i have hardly anyroom to talk.
Not having many colleges that wrestle does more harm to the sport in Kansas than not providing opportunities to our own athletes. Additional four year schools with wrestling programs would benefit the coaching pool in Kansas, also. Many of those young men would graduate with degrees in education wanting to fill coaching postions here in this state. The technical skills of those former college athletes as coaching candidates would be huge.
The states that surround Kansas all have several colleges that offer the sport, and they have former college wrestlers coaching clear down into their kids clubs. There has to be a great many skills that are being passed along to those young wrestlers. In Kansas we send many of our best wrestlers off to complete their college careers in those other states, and to later occupy coaching positions in those states.
I know that was not the point of this topic originally, but the conversation drifted in that direction and I had something to say.
Gary Ulmer
what kind of pressure can be put on the state universities by the kansas wrestling community???
I say our best chance would be at Wichita State University, they have Women's Volleyball but not Football, so maybe an opportunity there?
why wichita st? does any other school in their conference have wrestling??
KSU & KU have bothed dropped their programs, Wichita State like Neuman hasn't had a program yet. KSU & KU have showed no interest in having a program besides "Club" status. WSU already has an open sport by not having Football and having Volleyball, that right there signifies there's an open male sport available, Wrestling. I believe the only school in the Missouri Valley Conference to have wrestling as of right now is the University of Northern Iowa, which is a decently strong team in Div. I. Perhaps since some of the schools like WSU don't have football they would be willing to add wrestling. Just a thought
This has been a wonderful debate and it is great to talk wrestling for a change. Here is my take and I could be wrong so if I am no big deal.
#1 All states need more college wrestling exposure and opportunities, but especially Kansas seeing as how we live here and our wrestlers really do excel year in and year out. Don't forget the number of JUCO kids from out of state that improve their skills from learning some from Kansas, you have to admit there has to be some influence there even if minimal.
#2 It is important to learn how to ride, look at the results from the NCAA finals.
#3 It is important to wrestle on your feet, for set ups, takedowns, defense the whole bit.
#4 you need to be a good defensive wrestler again, an obvious thing.
I could go on and on obviously but my comment here is that every wrestler needs to be a complete wrestler. Certainly all of the ones mentioned were. I have another point though, How many of those wrestled Freestyle, Greco and Folkstyle. I believe that likely most if not all did. That is my point, to be a complete wrestler learning all styles is really important.
Last comment, I know sportsfan was being sarcastic but he makes a great point. If you don't believe it, let me know I have their matches on video and will be glad to see how much those two worked off of their feet. I used to think that my boy was fast, but Shawn Bunch is incredible and his definite strong suit is his feet, Joe is a more complete wrestler, but for either of these guys, forget about riding time being their strong point.
Originally posted by ilander27:
why wichita st? does any other school in their conference have wrestling??
Wichita State because they don't have a football program and thus don't have the Title IX problems of the other two schools.