Kansas Wrestling
Posted By: kahuna Bring Back Grand State - 02/26/02 02:23 PM
It seems to me that we're seeing an influx of folks who are debating their points over who is the best at what weight in our Grand State. Thus I am casting my *one*! vote to bring back this event of yesteryear that I'd often heard stories of. I myself would love to see an event where the top 4 placers in each classification combine in a braggin rights tourney each year. If some of the top 4s are unable to compete then it could be handed down to # 5 or 6 etc in order to fill a 16 man bracket. The Salina Bicentennial Center would be a perfect site. This could take place the week or 2 after State Championships. If the KSHSAA is unwilling to get involved then perhaps the Kids organization would be willing to host the event with the proceeds going back to where most of us begin..the Kids State Federation Program. It would be nice to see a scholarship or 2 given to a worthy recipient who has been involved in wrestling who is in need of financial support or aspires to compete further or coach someday. It would be an honorable thing to have a memoriam for some of our states greatest contributors such as Bob Cairns. I realize that to get a ball like this rolling that it would entail a lot of financial backing for start-up, brainstorming, volunteers, insurance etc. But I honestly see where an event of this magnitude & quality could be well attended & profitably viable. ***Sure would be nice to see some of our sports top movers & shakers become involved in a project like this. *** Kevin :rolleyes:
P.S. As far as the comments regarding the Wichita Coliseum site for State. I've witnessed where cities actually compete for a community boosting event as this. If the price isn't right & some conditions aren't met then I say ...lets move on. We shouldn't have to pay exhorbitant prices for an event which is a boom for their locale & not be appreciated. I like the thought of combined 3A- 4A ////& 5A-6A splits. :p
Posted By: wrestlingfanatic Re: Bring Back Grand State - 02/27/02 02:40 AM
I dissagree wth combining the 3-4A. keep it as it is. don't change a thinkg it will ruin the whole excitment of goig to state!!!!!!!
Posted By: Travis Phippen Re: Bring Back Grand State - 02/27/02 02:55 AM
I agree. A Class Champion is a great accomplishment, but one true state champion really lets an athlete know that they are the best, no questions asked. California manages to have one state tournament and they have about 20X the amount of wrestlers that Kansas does. It could be very economical for the host city. Remember the NCAA record was broke this year with wrestling. I too cast my vote to bring back a grand state tournament.
Posted By: kahuna Re: Bring Back Grand State - 02/28/02 03:04 AM
Having a tourney as was suggested over the x-mas break would not be optimal as was stated in Aaron Meister post as the current season will be in full swing. Past years seniors likely not available or not in same weight or wrestling shape & manys coaches, parents, or even the KSHSAA may not allow a mid season event as this. I doubt that one would risk injury mid-season versus competing after season. I do know that Bob Phillips runs a good tournament & would like to see his involvement as well in a project like this.
Posted By: jmadden Re: Bring Back Grand State - 02/28/02 10:48 PM
Travis, I am not sure what you mean by remember the NCAA record was broken this year with wrestling. What record are you referring to?
Posted By: Ron Re: Bring Back Grand State - 03/01/02 12:22 AM
I think every wrestling fan in Kansas would like to see the Grand State again. I don't think it will ever happen through the schools. Kevin, I think you may be on to something with the Kids Federation sponsoring the event. You may want to talk with Mr. Juby or Mr. Grater about your idea.
I don't think it will happen through the schools because of 1.money 2.all other sports and activities will want a Grand State.
While I'm on the subject of money in our school districts, I have a great concern about our sport.Everone knows, many of our school districts are facing some big cuts in their budgets. Some schools are already talking about cutting some sports and activities.
I like to watch the big tournaments during the year as much as anyone and I enjoy watching stud A wrestle stud B. My concern is if we continue to only wrestle tournaments and forget home duals, how do wrestling programs make money beside hosting a big tournament? We need to keep in mind, basketball has anywhere from 8 to 12 home events while wrestling has only a few. My concern is when administrators and school boards start looking at programs to cut, wrestling may be at the front of the line for some districts. Many people in a community do not travel to watch wrestling like some of us old die hards. I'm afraid if we never wrestle at home, the community will not stand behind wrestling if a school board wants to cut a sport. I watched it happen in our colleges and I hope it doesn't happen to our high schools.
Posted By: Mike Juby Re: Bring Back Grand State - 03/01/02 04:07 AM
I would love to see a Grand State tournament, and would like to offer USA Wrestling-Kansas’ support such a venture. However, I don't believe that current KSHSAA rules would allow the schools or their coaches to participate in such an event. KSHSAA regulations prohibit schools from participating in All-Star competitions. This prohibition extends to directly or indirectly furnishing school facilities or equipment, coaching or promotion of the event. An All-Star team is defined as any team made up of athletes from different schools who are selected to participate in a specific contest on the basis of their athletic prowess.

The Executive Board of KSHSAA has the authority to grant an exception to this rule, but I don't believe they are inclined to do so. If you would like to see a Grand State, the place to start is with your school's administration. Only if enough administrators support the concept is KSHSAA likely to approve. We could hold the tournament without KSHSAA's blessing, but without school equipment, coaches or support, it would be a doomed venture from the start.
Posted By: Jeremy Roberts Re: Bring Back Grand State - 03/01/02 04:27 AM
What do they call the shrine bowl, east/west classic or metro classic.
Posted By: Mike Juby Re: Bring Back Grand State - 03/01/02 01:49 PM
jrob1982,

The events you listed are limited to seniors only. Because their high school careers are completed in that sport, they don't have the same restrictions.
Posted By: Travis Phippen Re: Bring Back Grand State - 03/01/02 09:34 PM
I was referring to the attendance record at an NCAA event. Over 16,000 fans attended the Minnesota vs. Iowa Dual, clearly showing that wrestling can be a very popular sport if the athletes can make it exciting and drive people to come and see it.
Posted By: VS Vike coach Re: Bring Back Grand State - 03/02/02 01:47 AM
Travis:

Just to clarify; the record you speak of was for a college DUAL meet. The overall single session wrestling record was over 21,000 at the NCAA tournament at the UNI-Dome at the University of Northern Iowa in 1997. But either way, you're right -- if the event is big enough and the fans are loyal enough, they'll show up. We just have to give them a show!
Posted By: Travis Phippen Re: Bring Back Grand State - 03/02/02 03:00 AM
Thanks, basically wrestling is the most exciting sport their is in my eyes. If it can be marketed to over 15,000 individuals for one meet think of the revenue it can bring in. Just look at the state tournament every year there has to be at least 5,000 people in attendance. If fans actually came to see wrestling, not just their sons, then a grand state tournament could not only show whom the actual best in state was, but could actually bring in some revenue for the KSHSAA. As mentioned before just develop more regional tournaments and have one state tournament . California does this and their state champions are actual state champions there would be no chance of if 5A met 4a or 6A met 321A It would be the best in the state and Kansas has 1/20th of the population of California. This is just my two cents, but ultimately it depends on what the public wants because sport at any level is dictated by the revenue that the sport generates. I know I would watch either or because for me high school wrestling is where you see sport at its most purest where the athletes actually get excited about winning. If you ask many olympians their most greatest feeling they ever had it would be winning a high school state tournament, I know it was for me. If people can feed off that energy then wrestling could be popular to the masses.
Posted By: John Farley Re: Bring Back Grand State - 03/02/02 03:33 AM
As a charter participant in the first Grand State
Posted By: John Farley Re: Bring Back Grand State - 03/02/02 03:42 AM
As I was saying I was a participant in the first Grand State in Kansas. It gives a wrestler in their weight class the chance to redeem themselves. I took 4th at State and had too wrestle a guy who took 1st my first match. I was able to win and beat another that took 3rd in his class. What I'm trying to say is when I went it was to show myself and others that I was better than my finish at State. So yes I think That we should find a way to to have another Grand State
Posted By: Mike Holliday Re: Bring Back Grand State - 03/02/02 04:03 AM
Who wrestles in Grand State? Seniors only? State champs only? How does one qualify?
Posted By: seth Re: Bring Back Grand State - 03/02/02 03:47 PM
All state placers in all classes :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Posted By: kahuna Re: Bring Back Grand State - 03/05/02 04:19 AM
Although it would be nice to see a KSHSAA backed event, ... I am doubtful that it would happen. I still think that our best option for this to happen is for a facility such as Salina Bicentennial Center which is not affiliated with any high school to hold the event sponsored by an independent group or USA Kansas. Lets start seeing some feedback as to suggestions of others. As Rick Bowden had stated thier would be some obvious & large hurdles to overcome for the High School Activities Association to do the Grand State again. There has to be someone out there who sees the possibilities for an event of this quality & magnitude. We have one of the largest grass roots (kids clubs involvement) in our nation with some of if not the most dedicated die hard fans there are, who are willing to travel at 5AM each weekend & spend all day to witness their youths competing in this wonderful sport that is often new to them but soon gets in your blood. The sport was not as huge for us Kansans back in the 70s as it is now. Lets give our fans the best amateurs we have to offer & show them what we've become. There used to be a legitimate argument as to the surrounding states being superior to us but I think we've arrived as evident of the successes we are seeing on the next level. Why should we fear Mighty MO in the Metro Classic when we ourselves are no one to take lightly as we showed last year. As for the Grand State.... BUILD IT & THEY WILL COME !!!!! What do we all think ?? :rolleyes:
Posted By: BigPin22 Re: Bring Back Grand State - 03/05/02 04:47 AM
My question is, why did the KWCA make a proposal on a Dual State tournament over a Grand State. There are only a handful of teams who really care about the difference the scoring would be if they dualed a team or were in a tournament with a team. Everyone knows people would be much more excited about seeing the individuals get a shot a proving they were the best in the state rather than seeing wich team would score the most dual points against other teams in their class. Did the KWCA ask the high school coaches and the high school athletes what they wanted? I garantee if you sent a petition to every wrestling program in the state asking for their opinion they would be more in favor of a Grand State, not a Dual State. With all the schools response we could approve a Grand State.
Posted By: kahuna Re: Bring Back Grand State - 03/05/02 05:18 AM
Good Question??? Big Pin ! I agree, the dual State proposal I think would better serve the egos of a few particular coaches where as a Grand State would involve competitors & fans from all areas of the State & I feel would undoubtedly provide better individual match-ups & be a huge draw.
Kevin
Posted By: Kit Harris Re: Bring Back Grand State - 03/06/02 04:57 AM
Some background info. on the Dual State proposal FYI:

The proposal was the result of extensive polling of all coaches in Kansas over the course of the last two years. Several proposals were presented in a variety of methods, mailings, surveys, meetings, etc. After numerous hours of meeting and discussions, the current Dual State proposal was formulated. To explain all of the details, reasons, rationale, etc. would take a very long time. Every area of the state has been represented at these meetings, and youth to collegiate coaches were involved also.

In regards to the Dual State vs. Grand State issue, one of the many reasons behind choosing to push for a Dual State is that it recognizes and involves more kids and more programs, whereas a Grand State only recognizes the few individuals who already recieve much recognition for their accomplishments, and rightfully so. But I think the many educators involved in the development of this proposal liked the idea of involving more kids in the excitement of a state-level competition, not less kids. We felt the fans would be enthusiastic about and be entertained by either competition, but more would benefit from a Dual State (more teams involved).

Also, the fact that a Grand State was already attempted and dropped, we felt perhaps a Dual State had a better opportunity for success. Research by Doug Moore (Concordia) told us that 21 states have a Dual State tournament and in their survey responses every one had very positive comments and feelings about that event. They said it was by far one of the most exciting events of their seasons. They also said it was fan and media friendly, and was a financial success.

Wrestling is unique in that we compete in two different formats with potentially very different results, Team A can defeat Team B in a tournament but Team B would win in a dual format. A Dual State would reward programs for dual success even though they may not have the team makeup to finish as high in a tournament format.

I personally recall mailing and posting on the KWCA and USAW-KS sites the meeting times, sites, etc., inviting all coaches to participate and provide input on the issue. These meetings have been held in Chanute, Topeka, Hays, Salina, and at numerous regional/state meetings held over the last two years. The summer meetings attracted over 60 coaches combined at two meeting sites: Chanute and Topeka. The input received from these discussions have probably been about 99% positive to approximately 1% negative so far. I also requested feedback, ideas, suggestions, etc., from anyone in the Kansas wrestling community. . .the ideas presented in each email, phone call, etc., were all taken to these meetings to share and discuss.

The KWCA has always acted on behalf of the coaches and kids it serves. This year at the 3-1A State Tourney coaches meeting, the question was asked whether or not to continue pushing for a Dual State Tournament, the result was 58-0 in favor. In 4A, 5A, and 6A coaches packets, the same question was asked. Two "no" votes and over 50 "yes" votes were submitted.

The KWCA will continue to provide its work on behalf of the coach's wishes, if this is for or against a Dual State, then that is the direction the KWCA will act. Currently, the overwhelming majority has expressed support for the possible addition of a Dual State tournament. It may pass, it may not, but at this point the KWCA is attempting to accomplish what the KS coaches have requested.

I just wanted to share some helpful information on this topic. Please feel free to email, call, etc., as all input is valued in our continued push as to what is best for the kids involved in wrestling in our state.

Sincerely,
Kit Harris, Baldwin HS
KWCA member
kharris@usd348.com
Posted By: jmadden Re: Bring Back Grand State - 03/07/02 01:35 AM
I was recently looking back at the Grand state programs from 1975 and 1976. I found several names that have been mentioned in other threads recently as great wrestlers who won GS.
Doug Duell Goodland 119
Tom Alstrom Oberlin 145
Roy Oeser KMC 167
Henry Madden Atchison County 185
I also found a couple of current coaches who won
Kirk Baker 132 Goodland
Dan Schmidt TMP 126
some of the matches were awesome including one where 35 points were scored in 6 minutes.
Posted By: Prant Garker Re: Bring Back Grand State - 03/07/02 05:49 AM
35 points in six minutes is not impressive, it is sloppy wrestling. That's middle school stuff. I bet a bunch of Daylighters were used.
Posted By: jmadden Re: Bring Back Grand State - 03/08/02 12:56 AM
Posted By: kahuna Re: Bring Back Grand State - 03/11/02 01:44 PM
Kit,

First of all, Congratulations on your program there at Baldwin. You have done an outstanding job & are a great advocate & leader for our sport taking the reins in things such as rankings, event & camp co-ordinating. I enjoyed watching you & Jay compete at a high level in High School. I wanted to address your reply to this post. Can you explain to me how this dual State is to play out?? I would imagine you'd take the top 3 or 4 dual teams from each classification in the State to compete. Will they compete in a dual or tourney setting & How many teams will they actually dual if that is the case? Although I can't fully say, as I don't yet know all the details of your proposal ; I kinda think the Grand State Event would still have more widespread involvement & serve as a better spectacle for the fans & create the " Big Event" for the media etc. to draw more interest to our sport from the curious in these times where they are talking of cutting programs. The Grand State would encompass our states very best individual match-ups which is what the public wants to see. It would bring in more folks & individual athletes/schools who have top placers... from all outlaying communities across the State whose loyal fans would be more inclined to attend because they may have one of their locals involved & feel like it hits closer to home with them. I do applaud your efforts in this dual proposal but I have to think that it was just that (Proposal) in that if people can actually see the possibility that one /or other of these events could actually come to fruition then you will see more feedback & involvement & I think that the Grand State proposal would be choice for most. Please don't turn your back to this idea yet either... as it would greatly benefit wrestling in Kansas. Keep up the great work & continued success! Kevin Calhoon
Posted By: kahuna Re: Bring Back Grand State - 03/11/02 01:59 PM
.Does any one know if reserved seating can be purchased for East/ West Classic ?
Posted By: VS Vike coach Re: Bring Back Grand State - 03/11/02 03:24 PM
Kit:

Sounds great Kit. Glad to hear Dual State goes back in front of the board again.
>Might want to throw this in, too:
>
>Iowa's State Duals were supposed to be last Saturday, March 2, but they were
>postponed due to the weather until Monday, March 4. The tournament still managed to
>draw 4,700 people to the finals on a Monday night -- the Monday of the first
>day of the girls' State basketball tournament in Des Moines.
>
>Good luck with things, and let me know if I can be of any help.

Always,
Jeff Holmes
Immaculata
>
Posted By: Mike Juby Re: Bring Back Grand State - 03/11/02 03:35 PM
If you want to see more information on the Dual State proposal, the information that Kit originally sent to me is still posted on the Kansas Wrestling website. You can find it under the "General" or "High School" sections, or click here to go directly to the proposal.

Kit, if any of this information is no longer current, let me know and I'll update it.
Posted By: VS Vike coach Re: Bring Back Grand State - 03/11/02 04:14 PM
One other thing using an old Iowa experience and I swear I'll stop...

About 20-some years ago, when girls' basketball in Iowa was first divided into classes (Iowa has a seperate organization for girls' high school sports from boys'), they tried an "unified" State tournament. Four teams qualified for State in each of four classes. Tuesday through Thursday, they played off to decide each of the four class championships. On Friday and Saturday they had their "Grand State." It was a competitive and financial disaster.

The girls' state basketball tournament in Iowa had -- for 50 years at that point -- been the most successful State tournament of the winter sports, averaging 12,000 fans per game for six days. The Grand State experiment dropped attendence for the last two days in 1980 and 1981 to less than half that. After two years, the Iowa Girls High School Athletic Union realized that they'd blew it; they went back to the old way of doing things, everyone was happy and they again made money.

Just some food for thought...
Posted By: kahuna Re: Bring Back Grand State - 03/11/02 04:31 PM
I just finished reading the proposal from the link that Mike Juby posted this morning & do admittedly like the proposal. I do in fact think these would also be well recieved events that the fans would enjoy. I especially like that they would take place in lieu of the league Tourneys which have in many cases lost their luster. You can't argue with the fact that they would be a bigger draw & fan friendly YET, ...I still can't help but think how great it would be to have a Grand State event (with or without the KSHSAA involvement) a week later that pits top overall individuals.... & for the moneys generated to filter back to the State Kids Organization as it serves as the feeder for the snowball effect in our sport and & to the In State Wrestling Colleges for scholarships to help ensure that we keep our programs in place & our wrestlers at home. All I'm trying.. I guess to say while we're talking about food,.. is that not only would the Grand State be GRAND, but also that there is PIE out there to be ate for whoever is willing to step up to the plate. Lets help out our colleges to help us get to the next level by giving them more funds to use for IN STATE college wrestling scholarships. AND By the way Gangreen that Girls PumpkinBall event in Iowa has nothing to do with us.... I am from Kansas & want nothing but success for Wrestling in this State & have to respectfully disagree with you that an event of this caliber wouldn't work also & be very beneficial to us. Ala Mode
Posted By: Kit Harris Re: Bring Back Grand State - 03/12/02 02:42 AM
I first want to make clear that many people were involved in the Dual State proposal that was started two years ago. My name seems to get attached to it most, and I guess that is primarily b/c I was KWCA president at that time and was coordinating meetings, submitting the proposals, etc. But it in no way was it "my" idea. Many deserve credit (or blame?!?). I was simply one person in a room full of coaches from all levels and all areas of the state discussing the details, pros/cons, etc.

In regards to dual state vs. grand state, the KWCA board wanted to discuss the possibility of adding one of these major events. We realized we could ask for one, but not both, and thus needed to choose. We all felt both would be great events. We decided, however, that a dual state had a much higher chance of approval, for a variety of reasons. One was the Grand State was once attempted and was disbanded. It is also something other sports could want and we felt the KSHSAA would be unlikely to pass it for fear of "opening up a floodgate."

But with a dual state, few (if any) sports compete in two completely different formats as wrestling does (perhaps tennis?). We felt this was something that wrestling could ask for w/out the KSHSAA having fear of other sports asking for a "second state tournament."

Also, many other states have a dual state (I believe 21 of the 47 wrestling states, something like that?) and all had extremely positive comments on the event. However, I don't know if any have a Grand State in the way we would be proposing it (after the ind. class state tournaments). Some states (like California) have only one state tourney (thus a grand state in that regard). We didn't know of any that had ind. class state tourneys, followed by a grand state. We felt it would be easier for us to go to the KSHSAA and be able to say, "look these other states have a dual state and love it, they say it makes money, is simple to operate, and gives more kids recognition for wrestling success as a kid who can not otherwise qualify for a state-level event can now do so if he is on a winning team." We weren't sure we could say all of these arguments with a Grand State.

If it is a "Grand State" Kansas wants, perhaps we should push for one state tourney: with regionals, followed by 3-1A/4A/5A/6A "qualifiers," followed by grand state. That way kids could still lay claim to being one of the "best in 4A" (or whatever their class is) but we could also then have a true state champion for each weight class. That is not a bad thought to pursue.

We could then also have our ind. class dual state for schools to compete against others their size in a dual format.

However, it sounds like a major change, and that takes many years, many arguments, many proposals, many meetings, etc. It would mean that wrestling is doing their own state series, different from every other sport. I am not sure how well the KSHSAA would receive that.

I don't know what the answer is, these are just some thoughts. What I do know is that currently the high school coaches continue to show overwhelming support for the dual state proposal (with only a few dissenters so far). And as long as this is the case then the KWCA board will work to act on their wishes.

Hope this helps provide some info. for the discussion.

Regards,
Kit Harris
Posted By: Westfahl Re: Bring Back Grand State - 03/14/02 03:48 AM
There will never ever be another Grand State Tourney sponsered by the KSHSAA. The reason is simple. It was a raging success and the basketball tourney was a huge flop. The Grand State drew more people than any other single day event in Kansas history and the wrestling was unbelievable. The national association as well as the state association is dominated by former basketball coaches. Ain't no way they would let that happen again. They can blame it on anything they want but they cant say it was not a big success. Heck the second and last one drew 6000 to the finals in the biggest blizzard Hays has ever seen. I know that because my car was buried in the back of the Holiday Inn. The big schools dominated the basketball tourney and the wrestling tourney was a crowd pleaser. The state couldnt handle that. I know because I was there and so were many of you. The rest is just politics.
Posted By: DOUG MOORE Re: Bring Back Grand State - 03/14/02 04:30 PM
I would just like to reiterate what Kit Harris has said concerning the Dual State Proposal. This was not one person's idea, but a collective one among the wrestling coaches of Kansas. This also was not an over-night decision, but one that was put together after two years of studying and surveying. I agree that a Grand State is an excellent idea and has been tried and proven, but it still only serves the great individuals. I honestly believe that coaches, including myself, felt that the Dual State would be more far-reaching. The individuals have already had their glory. What about the kid who's on a good team and never makes it to state? That type of kid, who paid his dues just like everyone else, will finally get that thrill of participating in a State competition. Thus, the Dual concept will reach out to more young men in the state of Kansas, and the last time I checked, that is what we are all about.

Doug Moore
Posted By: VS Vike coach Re: Bring Back Grand State - 03/14/02 06:05 PM
Coach Moore:

Thank you for summing it all up so well. That is exactly what Kansas, the KWCA and KSHSAA is all about. We can debate the other stuff until we're blue in the face; it's about ALL the kids.

Regards,
Jeff Holmes
Immaculata High School
Posted By: kahuna Re: Bring Back Grand State - 03/14/02 07:00 PM
I am flat tired of the fact that some of you coaches seem to need to belittle the thought of a Grand State Wrestling event taking place. The excuse you use, Mr. Moore, that this would be a more far reaching event that would reward those 3 or 4 wrestlers from an elite team who themselves didn't qualify for the State Tourney is not a statement that I, or many others will NOT buy into. You state that this is what it is all about... is the wrestlers. What is actually of most importance for many of you coaches is your ego. Those non-qualifiers who have been fortunate enough to have been on those teams are likely also to have better coaches working with them & are likely surrounded with good wrestlers to compete against day in & day out & know a tradition of excellence associated with their schools team. They will most likely have a much better chance at stepping it up to qualify that next year than someone from a school that doesn't have those surroundings. So your premise is nonsense that they need to be rewarded because they didn't qualify but were on a great team because if we wanted to reward all competitors possible then how bout a State for JV or say perhaps those Seniors who have competed but not on Varsity etc. Which is really more important to you ....kudos to you to that you are the bomb to your fellow coaches.. or an event that would draw more interest for our sport & recognize those.. (yes INDIVIDUALS), for example last years Ryan Phillips, Holton or Rocky Baptisto, a Native American from Horton.. who are maybe 1 or 2 from their school to qualify & place at State. In these cases, .. Those followers of our sport from Jackson or Brown County would be more inclined to go to an event such as Grand State which includes someone they are familiar with. This is just one example & thus would create a much bigger spectacle & have greater attendance than one suppoting only 8 or 16 teams. That point cannot be argued with. There would also be those that would go to a Grand State because the fans (* all across the State*)know they are getting the very best possible match-ups & it also is creating the INDIVIDUAL david vs Goliath match-ups. As long as those few of you in our Sport who feel that your ego is more important than the good of this Sport in Kansas continue to knock down what is a good idea then I will continue to respond. I have stated that a dual State in lieu of the League Tourneys would be a better draw & good for our Sport. But....I still continue to believe whole-heartedly that a GRAND STATE EVENT whether or not supported by the KSHSAA would 1) bring more recognition to this sport /from many who are unfamiliar 2) could be an event that could provide stability & scholarships to our in-state wrestlers to compete with them at the next level. That cannot be argued with either. Mr. Moore & Mr. Holmes, I think we know what you want.... maybe you & a few of your colleagues should merely take a hard look at what is in the VERY BEST INTEREST FOR KANSAS WRESTLING. Is it that you fear the masses will prefer to have a Grand State rather than the Dual State event ? The bottom line is this.. Do I HONESTLY BELIEVE that a GRAND STATE event can draw 6,000 wrestling crazed fans again as Mr. Westphal stated, as well as a curious few who may get involved in our growth & most importantly BENEFIT KANSAS WRESTLING ?? The answer is most definitely YES & YES. That is why this is important to not only me but once again MORE IMPORTANTLY to.....KANSAS WRESTLING. Thus I am sorry if I insulted anyone's ego !
Posted By: Westfahl Re: Bring Back Grand State - 03/15/02 01:14 AM
Whoa!! I just want to go on record that I was simply refering to the Grand State and the value I remember in it as well as the reasons that I believe it failed to be renewed. I am equally enthusiastic about the dual state tourney. It has been successful in many states and would be here as well. I didnt mean to get in the middle of any debate of one versus the other as I am not currently coaching and I don't really know what conversations are currently taking place on these issues. I have never believed that the KSHSAA really had any interest in promoting wrestling as a major sport in this state even though it obviously is and has been for many many years if not decades. Look how hard the fight was to get medals for fifth and sixth place and that was a very easy thing to do if they really had the interest of the kids at heart. There are many good people on both sides of this issue, lots of great coaches who I know are NOT as self serving as they have been described in some of the posts here. All I know is that if there were some people in high offices of the state and national that were not former basketball coaches a lot of this stuff would be a non-issue. I mean the guy that started the state association and the national association was a basketball coach and I challenge you to find many if anyone in the state office now that was not in that position. I am not saying they do a bad job I am just saying they have no real love for this game like those of us who have sweat on the mat in anger.
Posted By: Westfahl Re: Bring Back Grand State - 03/15/02 01:49 AM
Oh yeah by the way. Doug Moore is a friend of mine and I didnt think he deserved to be slandered like that in print. He's not that devious even if he is from Oakley.
Posted By: kahuna Re: Bring Back Grand State - 03/15/02 02:24 AM
I am not hoping to win a popularity contest or lay claim to who I know in wrestling circles. It is my intention to speak on this issue that I believe in. That is all. I'm sorry but I think 1) the dual state is being pushed more by a select few 2)wonder why the Grand State has not also been proposed as it has been a proven success 3) the dual event would not serve to be more far reaching to the masses comparitive to the Grand State & 4) if the 2 events were surveyed & stacked up side by side that the Grand State would be more beneficial to Kansas Wrestling & the choice of the Kansas Wrestling Community. I personally would like to see both events take place each year. And Mr. Westfahl, ...just because I continue to defend my stance & am honestly stating my opinion that I feel that the dual event is as much for the coaches as anything,.. That does not mean it is my intention to hurt anyone's feelings or slander their name. I am fully aware of many of the successes of many of the names associated with the dual proposal & recognize that. ...In closing what I have to say is merely my heartfelt belief that our state can greatly benefit from a Grand State event. All this because I believe ....The interest I serve is bigger than myself. Am I wrong for this ?
Posted By: Westfahl Re: Bring Back Grand State - 03/15/02 02:34 AM
Mr. Calhoun;
I hope I spelled your name right I am bad at that. I agree with you about the Grand State Tourney. It was a wonderful event, it would promote wrestlers to colleges around the country, it was the greatest single sporting event I have ever seen in Kansas High School athletics. You are absolutely right about your passion for this event and I wish I didn't know exactly why it was scuttled (and that is exactly the right term for it) but I do and I know that they will never let something that good happen again. I believe that the coaches are trying to get something they feel they can get and in their passion they are coming up with their best reasons for why they want it because in their hearts they know what I know, that Grand State is (saddly) a dead issue with the people that can allow it to happen. That is by design not accident. I applaud you for your passion to wrestling and you are not wrong. I was kidding and Doug a lot about the slander deal, he doesnt need me to defend him and I wanted to get a little shot in fun at Oakley. Keep dreamin my man that is how the Grand State happened in the first place.
Posted By: Kit Harris Re: Bring Back Grand State - 03/15/02 03:38 AM
Mr. Calhoon,
I would like to respond to a few of your concerns you have expressed.

I feel your claim that a DS is being pushed by a "select few" can be statistically proven incorrect. In numerous coaches polls done by the KWCA, overwhelming support has been shown for the DS proposal (so far it has ranged from 96% to 100% with usually well over 100 "yes" votes with between 0-3 "no" votes). As long as this is the case, the KWCA will continue its efforts as it has (which may or may not be successful, who knows, but we are trying). If this support changes, then perhaps we can consider another proposal, but that is yet to be the case. It is the duty of all KWCA officers, in my opinion, to act on behalf of the entire coaches group. They can't and shouldn't act otherwise. If they did, they would be mishandling their position.

In regards to why a GS has not also been proposed. . .it has. Both were brought up, discussed and thought through, and the general consensus (again shown through polls) was the DS had a much better chance of passing. I recall positive comments being said about both events, but all seemed to be in agreement the GS was very unlikely to gain approval (for numerous reasons). We felt it much wiser to ask for something we had a chance to get, as opposed to wasting time and effort towards something we agreed we could not (and hopefully we are not wasting our time with the DS proposal. . .I would hate to see that, many have worked very hard). But that is why the DS route was chosen.

In regards to your claim that a GS would serve more. . .as far as fans, I think both would draw and entertain large crowds. As far as kids participating. . .a GS of 16 wrestlers in 14 weights would provide an event for 224 wrestlers, all who have had much spotlight all season and probably most of their wrestling lives. A DS of 16 teams per class with 14 wrestlers per team could serve 896 wrestlers, many who have not had much spotlight, but are an important part of our sport just as well. I very much like coaching those kids (the ones who don't win all that much). I admire their daily effort and I get excited when they do accomplish their goals (maybe their first win, a medal, etc.) That is truly one of the joys of coaching and working with youth, it is one of the reasons why I do what I do. But I support an event that involves 896 kids over one that involves 224.

As far as what the entire Kansas wrestling community would support more, who knows, I really don't know how we could ever determine that statistic. Perhaps there is a way but I think it would be tough. But I do know that the KSHSAA only hears proposals from administrators or the KCA via the KWCA. That is why the proposal has come from that organization. If both issues were put before the entire wrestling community, I could see never-ending arguments for both events lasting quite some time.

Kevin, I respect your opinions and admire your enthusiasm for our great sport, however I would like to say I think this forum (provide by the cooperation of the KWCA and USAW-KS) ought to be used for respectful discussion of ideas, thoughts, debates, etc. But at all times maintaining fair treatment of everyone involved, personal attacks are best left out. I feel you have been treated rather respectfully by those posting their views and would like to encourage you to do the same. We are all on the same team here with the same ultimate goal in mind. . .promoting our great sport in our great state, not because of "egos" (which was an unfair jab) but instead for helping youths benefit from this sport the way we all have. Obviously, we all feel that way about wrestling or we wouldn't be doing what we're doing. Let's keep it clean, respectful, fair, and most of all, with the kids in mind.

I will say again, if we are wanting to know our true individual state champions, perhaps we should be putting together a proposal that includes: 1)class regionals, then 2)class states, then 3)all-class grand state, then 4)dual state. This way we have state qualifiers, ind. class champions, then also our true grand state champion, but we also let teams compete against schools their own size in a dual format. Best of all worlds, perhaps. But in reality, that would probably never get through, I don't think the KSHSAA wants to do things "differently" between sports. . .which is likely one of our biggest obstacles with the DS proposal. Maybe worth some thought, though.

Regards,
Kit Harris
Posted By: kahuna Re: Bring Back Grand State - 03/15/02 04:04 AM
Kit, yeah it is worth some thought. As a wrestler you should know that sometimes the toughest battles taste the sweetest. I don't always believe in taking the easy way out. To say that we are complacent with merely having the KSHSAA apease us should not be the case. Just as you made some very valid points.. I feel you need to think not only of the number of wrestlers involved but numbers of the wrestling communities involved & $$$$ that can be generated & interest that can be sparked. Plus it (GS) is a proven success ! You state this wasn't brought forward for several reasons. Please elaborate! I can't believe that anyone that has wrestled is not willing to put up a fight. I know one thing, I'm only 1 person but I'm not afraid to let the KSHSAA know what I think. Maybe we scare them how big a Dog we can grow to !! God forbid we become the wintersport of choice!! And by the way Kit, ...you're doing a good job but don't give up hope that we can't fight em cause we CAN !
Posted By: kahuna Re: Bring Back Grand State - 03/15/02 04:11 AM
oh yeah, I do believe that we would be better off working with them ( KSHSAA) then against them but you sound as though we would have a fight with anything. well, if a fight is whats necessary, then thats what we'll have to do if we think its worth it ! We do have numbers & there is strength in numbers###### !!!!
Posted By: VS Vike coach Re: Bring Back Grand State - 03/15/02 09:24 PM
Kevin:

You're not going to scare the KSHSAA no matter how big a "DOG" you try to become. Picking a fight with the governing body of high school sports in Kansas would not only be futile but a waste of time. There is a system in place to bring about change and that's the system the KWCA and the state's wrestling coaches are working through.

As Coach Harris and Coach Moore have been trying to point out, the membership of the KWCA (representing the majority of the schools in the state that have wrestling) were given the opportunity a couple of years ago to decide which they would prefer -- Dual State or Grand State. Overwhelmingly, the membership voted to support Dual State. Are there coaches who'd prefer Grand State? Sure there are, but right now, insofar as the KWCA membership is concerned, they are in a small minority.

My suggestion to you is simple: Seek out coaches who agree with you, have them join the KWCA and have them make the push to get Grand State passed. If the membership of the KWCA votes to support such a plan, then it can eventually go to the KSHSAA for debate.

Kevin, I admire your zeal and passion for your cause and while I don't agree with your position, I respect your opinions. Our great state and great nation has a system to bring change. We in the KWCA are working through that system now; I hope you will do the same.

Best wishes,
Jeff Holmes
Immaculata High School
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