Kansas Wrestling
I realize that KS wrestling intelligentsia already knows everything, won't change and can't learn from what happened in St. Louis. But wrestlers, you don't have to scratch too deeply to find common ground among Johnston, Bunch and Roberson from the previous year.
The common ground is Coach Kevin Klemm. Klemm developed these guys in HS by teaching them to wrestle on their feet in the Spring and Summer. He never taught them to ride and they couldn't use his trapped arm gut at NCAAs. Don't forget about other Klemm students who are coming down the road McCormick, Gardner, Dyer and others. The guy's results speak volumes but Klemm was often dissed by KS's wrestling "thought leaders" around the state who don't get it. Incredibly, he was left off several KS state freestyle teams. Klemm left us for Stanford. Hopefully Aiken and others will pick up where he left off, but make no mistake that Klemm is the common thread among today's KS elite wrestlers and not Nigel, sptsfan02, Jilka, Kanwrmn, Thayer, etc. Klemm taught wrestling like I've been telling you it ought to be taught in KS. Get away from those who espouse that "wrist and ride em" style if you want to be successful at the next level. Riding is a plus, but KS coaches teach it at the expense of teaching you how to compete on your feet. And, the officials are their accomplices by not calling stalling on the top man.

"Those who can't be taken down and can't be rode can't be beat."
I have to agree, somewhat, with what gutwrench is saying. I too, in my reports on the Metro claimed that loosing Kevin Klemm was a big blow to Kansas wrestling as a whole and specifically to the Metro area.

Perhaps, the Paola club and Russ Hermreck is picking up the slack a bit. Also, having Akin back around has surely got to be a plus.

Kevin's style was definitely and in-your-face, move the head with heavy hands, and controlling your opponents from the neutral position.

I've read gutwrenchs posts, claiming a weakness in the Kansas style. I have to agree! While college level coaches look for riding skills they also look for wrestlers who are dominant on their feet. I don't see many elite wrestlers being ridden nor for that matter taken down. But if I had to emphasize one skill, as if I am one to have much credit in my opionon, it would be strengthening our wrestlers on their feet.

Any how, that's my 2 cents worth!
I do believe Kevin has been a loss to the Metro Area wrestling. But do not under-estimate the importance of riding time at the college level. I was just skimming some of the notes from this years NCAA I semi-finals. Bunch over Reiter 1:58 riding time 6-4 final score (that is a taken down cushion in case of over time). Gallick over Simmons 2 minutes riding time 2-0 final score. Rosholt over Padden 10-9 with 1:11 riding time - that was the difference in the match. Riding time determines more matches than you think with some of the top guys. I am sure the guys at Stanford are well aware of the significance of riding time. In close matches there are a few reasons to ride an opponent. One is the obvious to score back points and the second is the riding time advantage - 1 point in college. For most collegiate wrestlers they may be warned for stalling quicker on top than the bottom guy who is trying to escape. Also the most energy is used by the top man when trying to hold down an escape artist. That is the give him 1 not 2 points Theory. A lot of those wrestlers/riders will look to score feet to back points when the man stands up - rather than trying to turn the opponent on the mat. When they are both on their feet you can see who is the more aggressive wrestler - in most cases. The wrestler who goes out of bounds with their back facing out gets the warning the majority of time. My point is - if you have a complete wrestler - college coaches will notice them. A college recruiter would want a take down, escape, and pinner/rider wrestler first. If that recruiter's other choice was just a take down and escape guy he would be second you can be sure of that. Just my two cents.
I just like the word intellegentsia.
Gutwrench,

I think you're missing the mark (again). Coach Klemm is a outstanding coach and has worked dilligently in the Metro. Yet I can never remember him getting "dissed" by the wrestling community. Please provide specifics. In fact, I've seen many complements towards him because of his athlete's attack on their feet. They do it quite well.

Since I don't know coach Klemm on a personal level, I can only comment on what I saw. Since you know him, please provide generalities on how he was dissed by Kansas. No need to bring up names.

Second, Klemm is not the only coach producing D1 calliber athletes. Coach Knox has produced some exceptional wrestlers in Wichita. His team has a long list of All Americans.

And what about Gable out west. His son was an Ok.St. wrestler. And lets not forget Colby. Looks like they got some pretty good kids there too.

I would even throw the Sunflower Gold club in the mix. It's a young club, but has a few All-Americans in the room.

And why did you leave off Roberson? National Champ last year at Iowa St. And Zach Allen? Wrestled Roberson in the finals of the Juniors when they were seniors. And that's just the tip of the iceberg! Heck kids from as far away as Columbus, like Devoe, would travel up to work out with him.

For a know-it-all, you sure don't know much.

Did Kansas lose a great coach - yep. Does that mean the end of the world? Nope. Are Kansas kids competing well in all levels of collegiate athletics? Sure are. Are you an idiot? I'd rather not comment because I might get banned.
Bunch won his first match at the NCAA's on RIDING TIME 9-8 OVER Mark Moos from Michigan. That is what I was told. I could not actually find the play by play. But a reliable source who went to St Louis provided that info at practice tonight.
Gutwrench,
You seemed to have changed tactics here. Since the numbers don't back up your claim that Kansas's wrestling style (what ever that is)is inferior, you instead try to shift the praise elsewhere instead of crediting the Kansas Wrestling Community for doing a good job.

I agree that Coach Klemm is a great coach, was a great asset to the Metro area, and helped develop some of the wrestlers you have mentioned. However, to imply that he is the only reason Kansas ranks well ahead of most states in D1 qualifiers based on population is ridiculous. What about Scott Coleman (2x All American) who did not train with Coach Klemm? Matt Murray, runner-up last year who did not train with Coach Klemm? Did Jake Kreigbaum train with Coach Klemm? Earl Jones (2x JuCo champ)? Eric Leudke (JuCo Champ)? What will you attribute their success to?

I do not dispute the fact that wrestling from the Neutral position is important but so is wrestling on the mat (both top and bottom).

Gutwrench I have several questions for you:
*How do you know what is taught in the practice rooms in this state?
*How many practice rooms have you been in?
*How many hours of preparation do you do to get ready for a season?
*How many hours do you stay up at night trying to think of new ways to get the most out of your athletes, most of whom are no where near D1 caliber wrestlers?

I do not know what you hope to accomplish through your incessant ranting about Kansas wrestling, but I can gaurantee you one thing, unless you become an actual participant (i.e. coach or official) you will never see the changes you would like.
I don't know how much riding time Bunch had on the Moos and i didn't see the match between Bunch and Moos but i know that Moos is a groofy wrestler and probably scored most of his points on the mat with reversals etc., which racks up riding time because they take a long time to get. Bunch, strength is on his feet and he probably took him down rode him for about 20-30 seconds and the Moos probably got a reveral and then Bunch quickly got to his feet so Moos couldn't get much of that riding time back. The more take downs or points scored the more riding time. It only takes a minute.

Obvious that Klemm was done a great job for kansas wrestling. Just look at the result. Two Divison 1 finalist, not juco champs or division II all americans or whatever. These wrestlers got it done in the highest level of colligate wrestling. Riding is important but I love watching Joe Johnson beat the crap of talented "riders".
The real message here is that there are great coaches that kids from all over the state will seek out-Kevin Klemm was one of them. Parents would drive from all over the state for his practices and just like a good coach he let each kid use their talent-whether a pin artist, takedown guy, rider etc... to develope their natural talents.
Other great programs and coaches are doing the same thing, look at STA, Paola, Eric Akin, Bob Gonzales, etc... these programs are now the ones that parents drive their kids all over to seek out great coaches and a great wrestling room
This is one of the biggest problems. In 1980 152 Division I schools had wrestling in 2002 there were 86. 1,520 scholarships vs 860 scholarships.
Divison II and Divison III also lost programs. More kids are forced to walk on and earn a scholarship the hard way. I am not positive but I would think the numbers are similar in Junior colleges, NAIA, and all levels post High School.

1979-80 - 152 Div. I; 72 Div. II; 150 Div. III, total NCAA schools - 374
1980-81 - 150 Div. I; 74 Div. II; 148 Div. III, total NCAA schools- 372
1981-82 - 146 Div. I; 68 Div. II; 149 Div. III, total NCAA schools - 363
1982-83 - 136 Div. I; 69 Div. II; 146 Div. III, total NCAA schools - 351
1983-84 - 136 Div. I; 62 Div. II; 144 Div. III, total NCAA schools - 342
1984-85 - 136 Div. I; 52 Div. II; 137 Div. III, total NCAA schools - 325
1985-86 - 133 Div. I; 51 Div. II; 133 Div. III, total NCAA schools- 317
1986-87 - 124 Div. I; 46 Div. II; 130 Div. III, total NCAA schools - 300
1987-88 - 121 Div. I; 41 Div. II; 127 Div. III, total NCAA schools - 289
1988-89 - 117 Div. I; 43 Div. II; 126 Div. III, total NCAA schools - 286
1989-90 - 112 Div. I; 44 Div. II; 122 Div. III, total NCAA schools - 278
1990-91 - 111 Div. I; 49 Div. II; 120 Div. III, total NCAA schools - 280
1991-92 - 110 Div. I; 48 Div. II; 117 Div. III, total NCAA schools - 275
1992-93 - 108 Div. I; 44 Div. II; 113 Div. III, total NCAA schools - 265
1993-94 - 107 Div. I; 49 Div. II; 108 Div. III, total NCAA schools - 264
1994-95 - 104 Div. I; 46 Div. II; 111 Div. III, total NCAA schools - 261
1995-96 - 98 Div. I; 48 Div. II; 112 Div. III, total NCAA schools - 258
1996-97 - 96 Div. I; 48 Div. II; 107 Div. III, total NCAA schools - 251
1997-98 - 96 Div. I; 42 Div. II; 101 Div. III, total NCAA schools - 239
1998-99- 94 Div. I; 43 Div. II; 101 Div. III, total NCAA schools - 243
1999-00 - 91 Div. I; 41 Div. II; 106 Div. III, total NCAA schools - 238
2000-01 - 90 Div. I; 41 Div. II; 104 Div. III, total NCAA schools - 235
2001-02 - 86 Div. I; 43 Div. II; 100 Div. III, total NCAA schools - 229
I would like to think that everyone could grasp the significanse of a DI one champ and two finalists from the same East Kansas wrestling club in two years, but amazingly enough some of you aren't even that smart. Only Blair Academy has done as well as East Kansas.

The emphasis you want to give to riding is out of whack with where winning wrestling has headed. Neutral is by far KS wrestling's weakest position because of commonly held beliefs like the ones above. Smokey equates neutral with the top position says they're all equally important. Twink insults us all by comparing NCAA DI finalists and a national champ with JUCO champs. Then he says Sunflower Gold, STA and Paola are adequate substitutes to Klemm's East Kansas Club. As a coach, if you can't distinguish between what's most important then you can't decide where to spend your practice time. The three positions in wrestling need to be taught but neutral is the deciding factor and deserves 75% of your practice time.

Right at 76% of the NCAA finals happened from the neutral position. I taped it and timed it. A riding point is established with only 1 minute or 14% of the total match time. Score three takedowns and ride your spiral for 20 secs each, get away fast and you've got your riding time.

Twink, who are the AAs at SunFlower Gold? You're cracking me up. As far as my credentials go, I'll say this much. I've paid my dues and got more than my fair share of acclaim as a coach and wrestler.
Correction---Twink and Gibby should be addressed in that final paragraph above.
DRAW A LINE WITH I-10 AND 1-135(kinda 1-35)GO'S FROME OKC TO CONCORDIA. SOMEONE FIGURE HOW MANY COLLEGE ALL-A CAME FROM EACH SECTION. AND THEN MATCH THAT FIGURE WITH POPULATION.
SORRY I MEANT I-70
Gut,

First reveal your name so that everyone here might lend some weight to what you say. As of right now you are nothing more than internet jockey rallying for things that just aren't going to happen. Secondly start your own wrestling club and teach kids the principals that you've been ranting on now for so long. Then we shall all see 1. How long will they last 2. How well will they fare during the season 3. Where do they choose to go to post secondary school. Until you start actively doing the things you are preaching about, I don't think too many people are going to lend weight to what you say.

Just as a matter of opinion I do think that SOME of the things you say are true, and I personally would like to see a lot less riding happen, however that is not to say that riding isn't an invaluable tool is very close matches.
Setting the record straight.....

As an individual affiliated with Sunflower Gold, I know some of their history. As you will read from my initial post, I said that it a young club - both in age and in years around. At one time it was a club but died out. A few wrestling individuals chose to take the club back and bring freestyle/greco to Topeka.

Sunflower Gold will take no credit for "producing All Americans," the kids were good when they walked in.

In the college ranks, Darion Terry of Mo Valley just placed again to be a 3X AA. Darion wrestled with the club and still comes in after returning from college to help and work out.

Last year, as a sophomore, Larry Perez placed 2nd in Greco and didn't wrestle Freestyle due to Vertigo. He's also a 2X state champ and ranked nationally.

At the kids ranks, freshman Colin Hase, 2nd in state @ 103 in 321A has placed nationally. Chris Strimple has as well.

Jesse Hardy out of Lawrence hasn't done too bad for himself either. I'm expecting big things for him.

And I can't leave out Zach Reeb. He has busted out as an excellent athlete in the past couple of years. Tough break a few weeks ago (wrist), but is on his way to being not just a state elite, but national elite as well.

We've got a few college wrestlers under our young belts down at Labette. National Champs and my alma mater! None broke varsity or were AA's but stuck out the season. I'm impressed because it's tough going from top dog to runt of the litter.

We have others that have made oral commitments to the club, but until the first day, I'll not comment.

Gutwrench, when your done swinging from the success of someone else and harping about what's missing, I'd like to see you in the room.

Some people like to complain, others get off their duffs and do something about it. There's an exciting change in philosophy in wrestling at the club - much of what you've said has been a focal point of the coaching strategy for the Olympic Styles at SG. We just chose to fix our deficienies rather than rant on the board about this and that.

SG athletes - am I forgetting some AA's or successful wrestlers?
Who the heck is gutwrench?
gutstench

First: East Kansas Kids Club doesn’t compare to Blair Academy, Walsh Jesuit, or any of the other elite wrestling programs across the nation. True, there have been some good wrestlers that came out of the East Kansas program, but not on a scale to compare to the elite. You obviously don’t know squat about wrestling! I saw your earlier post on here about Kansas coaches and just when I thought you couldn’t be more of an idiot you go and post this article. I went ahead and added the web site for Blair Academy and Walsh Jesuit just so people will understand that you don’t know what your talking about. The statistics of East Kansas Wrestling Club don’t even come close to the two that I have provided.

Blair Academy
http://www.blair.edu/Athletics/Wrestling/_site/archives/postacc.htm
Walsh Jesuit
http://www.walshjesuit.onlinecommunity.com/cgi-any/newspages.dll/teasers?sitena

I’ve known Kevin Klemm for about twenty years and Kevin knows wrestling, but I wouldn’t put him above a Wayne Jackson, Larry Gable, or a Rocky Weldon. East Kansas did a great job recruiting kids that were already good athletes/wrestlers to join their club, they did not create them. Division I athletes are born with God given talents and no one can develop something like this if isn’t already there. I also know some kids that were a part of that program (East Kansas) that were brought in for nothing more than throwing dummies for the better athletes.

If Kevin Klemm was such an extraordinary coach why wasn’t he hired by a topnotch program such as OSU, Iowa, Minnesota, or Iowa State, instead of Stanford? Stanford finished 37th in the NCAA Tournament, and had a 5-7-1 dual record against a weaker schedule. And why didn’t this program do better with Klemm on the staff? Klemm is a good kids club coach and nothing more.

I’m not bashing Kevin, but he is not the end to Kansas wrestling. Your opinion of East Kansas Wrestling Club and Kevin Klemm are bias and you haven’t supported your forum post.
Gibby, those guys aren't DI AAs. Enough already from you and the Sunflower Gold. They're not EKWC in its hey day. Rizo, look at the Blair site again. It proves my pont. NCAA finalists for East Kansas are Bunch, Johnston and Roberson in the past two years. Blair had Esposito and Mocco. And, youdon't think Blair recruits? What's wrong with the comparison and what do you have against Klemm? "He didn't develop but recruited good kids" and "he's nothing but a good kids club coach" and "he went to lowly Stanford". Not to diss him but you did, big time and you should apologize for being a smuck. I guess you forgot that Stanford had their first national champ last year and the Schultz connection. By the way, help me out with all the DI finalists and champs coached by Weldon, Jackson and Gable?

Pretty soon I'm going to reveal who I am and make you feel like idiots.
Gutwrench
I did not insult anyone, but only pointed out the fact that we have wrestlers acheiving at extremely high levels in wrestling, that had no affiliation with the East Kansas Club. I also did not establish credentials of any other club, that was done by others.

You however did not answer any of my questions:

*How do you know what is taught in the practice rooms in this state?
*How many practice rooms have you been in?
*How many hours of preparation do you do to get ready for a season?
*How many hours do you stay up at night trying to think of new ways to get the most out of your athletes, most of whom are no where near D1 caliber wrestlers?

Gutwrench: go ahead and wow us with your identity and accomplishments. I know that I won't feel like an idiot, regardless of who you are.
Calling you out Gut-less wrench! I have some theories on who you are and feel that you are the incarnation of another former "cage-rattling" forum poster. Is that right? Hows things these days? send me a private and we can converse, in the meantime, go read the new book on the BTK killer, check out the psychological profile--interesting stuff about making up for lack of certain abilities.......
SG all-americans
kids freestyle/greco 2004

Chris Strimple 1x
Gage Deere 2x


Colin Hase
Gage Deere
Zach Reeb
part of Schoolboy National dual team


Jesse Hardy-Cadet dual team
Larry Perez-National Greco runner-up
I don't have anything against Klemm. He was a pretty good wrestler in his time and he did good job with his kids program. Klemm coached East Kansas from 1989-2003. Compare those years with Blair Academy and tell me, using common sense if you possess it, that East Kansas can compare to them. By the way one of Klemm’s top wrestlers, Justin Dyer, was knocked off by Blair’s Kurt Backes at the 2002 High School Nationals.
Dyer had no business being on the mat with the kid. The technique of the Blair kid was far superior to that of the East Kansas kid. As far as Johnston, Bunch, Roberson goes, I guess your going to tell me that their high school and college coaches had nothing to do with their success. I really think that Bobby Douglas (Iowa State coach) probably taught Roberson a little more than Klemm. I would say that Bobby Douglas has probably forgotten more about wrestling than Klemm will ever know.
Lastly, I would think that you would have sense enough not to give credit to Klemm for Stanford's lone national champion. That kid was on his way to a championship before Klemm even showed up at Stanford. So, even implying that Klemm molded this kid’s accomplishment places Klemm on the coattails of someone else’s success.

As for making me feel like an idiot, I seriously doubt that you will ever do it with your lack of wrestling knowledge.
Well we Wrestled Blair Academy in high school there good because none of their kids are from New jersey they get the best from around the country and when we wrestled them they had two studs from Russia, you could put the best kids from kansas in each weight and they would get killed.
Hey gutwrench, when you can beat me a juco wrestler here at Labette. In fact when you can beat any of the college wrestlers who have come from the Sunflower Gold wrestling team you can start talking trash. East Kansas hasnt produced just D1 wrestlers you know. No I do not know who has wrestled in college other than D1'S right now. But still when you have the "gut" to tell us all who you are and step onto the mat yourself , you should just keep your mouth shut.
I bet you probably never even wrestled in college or placed at high school state.
Gut makes a good point. The success of Roberson, Bunch and Johnston do have a common denominator, the EKL wrestling club (coach Klemm). There are other good coaches in KS, but not this kind of success. Maybe coincidence, maybe coaching. Gut also makes a good point about practice, if you're on your feet 75% of the time you should practice there 75% of the time.

I'd be surprised to see Kansas have such a successful state tournament like this years.


If you want to compare to schools like
Blair Academy, note that they are a national high school team. I don't think they compete at the New Jersey State tournament. They travel the states wrestling top teams and competing in big tournaments like the Ironman and the Beast of the East.

Also other top High School team in the Nation that may arguably have a stronger tradition than Blair Academy is St Edwards in Cleveland, Ohio (same town as Walsh Acedemy mentioned by Rizo). I've seen there team and would most easily beat all star team of State champions in Kansas.
They are good on their feet and the mat.
Ive heard of a poll that say that high school wrestling is tougher in New Jersey then in Pennsylvania and Ohio that have produced a ton of division I quality kids in the last couple of years.
Hint: I'm listed in the National Wrestling Hall of Fame of Champions in Stillwater. I do enjoy stirring you guys up. Yes, Dity-Bird, I can knock your you know what it the dirt.
I believe the common ground on most of these wrestlers is summer wrestling. There is an art to riding Oklahoma State won many national titles due to there riding ability (reference from Gable to Gotch). Klemm has done an outstanding job with helping evolve the kids he has worked with. One thing to remember is that unless you throw someone you can't turn them from your feet. I personally believe you can also be successful with a good leg ride as well. Look at the likes of Les Gutches or Kendall Cross. Gutches could put in the legs and make people beg to get pinned. I just believe college guys are harder to control on the mat and hence why many matches spend a lot of time on the feet. None the less, you have to be well rounded in multiple areas to be a successful wrestler. Kevin has done a great job and is fairly humble. He would probably assure you that these kids made the sacrifices of their own and have been helped by several people along the way including each other. If you look at the multitude of talent in that room it is bound to feed off one another.
Phippen, I do agree with your comments in principle about OSU from the top position. But do you realize that 10 NCAA finals matches there was not a single nearfall? Jesse Jantzen was the most recent example of really dominant top guy but this is the exception not the rule. Neutral decides the outcome of most matches and I'm going to keep harping on that until we get it accepted by the KS wrestling intelligentsia. They've got it wrong.
Quote:
Originally posted by gutwrench1:
Hint: I'm listed in the National Wrestling Hall of Fame of Champions in Stillwater. I do enjoy stirring you guys up. Yes, Dity-Bird, I can knock your you know what it the dirt.
Can you even SPELL? And who cares if you are in the Hall of Fame, the point is you wont even share with us your name obviously you are scared to tell us who you are. Besides if you are saying that KS coaches arent as good as Klemm then you should probably take a look around you and stop running your mouth until you give your name.
Gutwrench,

Does that mean that our college wrestlers need to focus on riding more. If you look at the past the likes of Gable and Taylor. Those guys gave up no points in tournaments. Not just offensive points, they never played the take em down let em up game. I believe to be the best you must dominate in all positions. You can get in a lot of trouble just focusing on one area. I will say though that the neutral postition is the most important, it is not the only position. Personally I do not like just the take down game. I coach my guys to pin as it is the defining moment of what wrestling is about and as stated before unless you are a thrower. Youhave to have a good ride, not just to earn points, but to dominate and get the fall.
Collegiate/Folk Style

In the NCAA finals all matches had taken downs and escapes. Of the 10 matches 6 of the winners had riding time advantage. Of the Semi-finals all the matches had takedowns and escapes. Even a locked hands.

Semi-Finals 20 matches
13 of the 20 matches had nearfall and/or riding time involved.

Semi-Recap
125lbs All Takedowns and Escapes Only

133 Lee - Fall/Pin Hawaiian Style
Bunch/Riding Time Kansas Style

141 Gallick/Simmons Takedowns and Escapes Only
Ware/Keefe 10 Back Points and Riding Time

149 Esposito - Riding Time
Simpson - Riding Time

157 Johnson - No Riding Time (Kansas Style)
Bertin - Riding Time

165 Perry Rides Letters
Hendricks No Riding Time

174 Pendelton 6 points on Nearfall
Askren Riding Time (Wisconsin Style)

197 Stender Riding Time
Rosholt Wins on Riding Time

HWT Mocco Riding Time (New Jersey Style)
Konrad Riding Time (Wisconsin Style)

ALL Three Areas - Top, Bottom and Neutral Are All Important. It's Folk Style
You can't compare Blair to East Kansas because its a club not a school. We didn't have practice everyday like blair. Mister Luther Rizo did you see the match between Dyer and the Blair kid the score was 4-3 with Backes getting a takedown with a minute to go. Don't think it was a butt kickin. Also there are many great coaches in Kansas like every state some coaches believe in wrestling on the mat others on your feet kleem liked his feet. If you can ride its a big bonus get time to get energy back but wrestling on your feet in were you win or lose the match 75% of the time.
I was definitely cheering for the 133 and 157 Kansas young men during the NCAA finals. But if you look at their matches each of them had at least one minute less than their opponent on top and or neutral. Which means they did not have as many opportunities for a take down. How many extra succesful shots can you take in a minute. There were 4 other finalists that gave up riding time and lost.
Gutwrench,

Does that mean that our college wrestlers need to focus on riding more. If you look at the past the likes of Gable and Taylor. Those guys gave up no points in tournaments. Not just offensive points, they never played the take em down let em up game. I believe to be the best you must dominate in all positions. You can get in a lot of trouble just focusing on one area. I will say though that the neutral postition is the most important, it is not the only position. Personally I do not like just the take down game. I coach my guys to pin as it is the defining moment of what wrestling is about and as stated before unless you are a thrower. Youhave to have a good ride, not just to earn points, but to dominate and get the fall.
Additional evidence on the importance of all three phases of wrestling can be found in the 2004 NCAA I finals. 7 of the 10 champs in 2004 scored nearfall points and/or had riding time advantage. It does happen but not very often - where the guy with riding time advantage loses.
Loss of Klemm will certainly be an impact - he has a proven track record. But he is not the only one in Kansas capable of churning out D1 All-Americans.

And, by the way, I suspect that Flynn, Zalesky and Douglas had a bit to do with these guy's success too - not just Klemm.

Gut - by the way when discussing Blair Academy, you missed Perry who finished his prep career at Blair and was a NCAA finalist this year (who, fyi, also wins a large share of his matches from top).

Kansas wrestling has improved by leaps and bound on the national scene in the past decade. Now that the bar has been raised by the Robersons, Bunches, Johnstons and Murrays of the world, this success will grow upon itself and continue to escalate. The pedigrees, coaching and confidence is all there to do so. And what a fine group of young men Kansas has poised to carry the torch!

As for the importance of takedowns. No arguement that neutral position skill is necessary to compete. But solid mat skills can make up for a deficiency from neutral.

I offer three points to support this, could certainly add more but think these three do it adequately -

1). Jake Rosholt is "only" 2x NCAA champ. He was taken down twice in the finals and still won. If Stender had been better from top, he'd have won the match. But Rosholt used a counter from neutral and three escapes to earn the title. Stender walked off the mat with two takedowns, but a runner-up finish. Rosholt can get takedowns, but most are generally off of counters. Hardly a poster child for the prototypical takedown king - but two NCAA titles and looking for a third.

2). Muzaffar Abdurakhmanov, when healthy, is unmatched in terms of neutral position skill. Absolutely phenomenal ability from neutral. He didn't place at this year's event. Why? Partially because he was injured, but also becase opponenets kept their elbows in, minimized scoring opportunities and made Muzaffar score from the mat. Result - Muzaffar, along with both who beat him, all failed to medal. Opposing coaches found a way to neutralize Muzaffar's strengths. Muzaffar handled Johnston pretty well at the Midlands-but I bet Zalesky would have followed similar strategy had they met in St. Louis.

3). Jake Percival - 4X All-American and a finalist. No where near the best in the weight from neutral, but still successful.

Neutral position prowess - important? You bet! Guaranteed success? No freaking way - just ask Stender, Abdurakhmanov or anyone of the many who took Percival down and still ended up losing.
A one dimensional athlete regardless of the sport will fail at the highest levels. YOu might be able to get away with it at lower levels (HS), but you'll get exposed as the competition improves.
Clarifications and specifications:
I never said EKWC was a bigger deal than Blair. But in terms of NCAA finalists East Kansas has had as many in the past two years. Never said Klemm alone was responsible for the success of these 6A East Kansas finalists, but that he was a common thread and developed them in HS.
Smokey, another way to look at it is that "riding" time didn't decide who won because it was only one point of many points scored in these matches. only 14% of the match needs to take place for someone to get riding time. 75% of the action is on your feet. There were no nearfalls in the 10 NCAA finals. So, as coach where do you want to spend most of your practice time?
ditsy-bird, I'll work on my spelling. Some of you have asked that I support my claims with my credentials so I have done so but no matter who speaks the truth you ought to consider it.
Riso-Ridiculous.
Riso writes "Justin Dyer was knocked off by Blair’s Kurt Backes. Dyer had no business being on the mat with the kid."
jan 2005, Iowa State 30
Oklahoma 6
Results By Weight
184 - Kurt Backes (ISU) dec. Justin Dyer, 4-3
Quote:
Originally posted by gutwrench1:
Riso-Ridiculous.
Riso writes "Justin Dyer was knocked off by Blair’s Kurt Backes. Dyer had no business being on the mat with the kid."
jan 2005, Iowa State 30
Oklahoma 6
Results By Weight
184 - Kurt Backes (ISU) dec. Justin Dyer, 4-3
just seems funny to me that a 4-3 decision is no business being on the mat
I knew I would have to clarify my last Post.
2004 NCAA I Finals, 2004 NCAA I Finals, 2004 NCAA I Finals NEARFALL POINTS and/or RIDING TIME/MAT WRESTLING 7 of the 10 champs scored nearfall or riding time advantage.

Additional evidence on the importance of all three phases of wrestling can be found in the 2004 NCAA I Finals. 7 of the 10 champs in 2004 scored nearfall points and/or had riding time advantage. It does happen but not very often - where the guy with riding time advantage loses.

125 lbs
Powel Tech fall Ott 18-2
9 nearfall points & riding time advantage
3 minutes plus (or 42%)

133lbs
Roberson vs Moore 7-3
3 takedowns and 1:35 riding time (21.4%)

141 lbs
Cliff Moore - Winner no riding time

149 Jantzen take down and 3 nearfall first period
2:47 riding time first period 9-3 winner with over 3 minutes riding time (42%)

157 Gentry vs Percival 4-2
Gentry wins on a reversal because Percival could not turn him or ride him. No riding time.

165 Letters over Lewis 5-2
Takedown and nearfall first period - No match riding time

174 Pendelton over Askren 11-4 and Pendelton had riding time (more than 14%)

184 Jones over Heizer Takedowns and escapes Only

197 Hahn over Fulsaas 7-2
Hahn had riding time advantage (more than 14%)

HWT Rowlands over Cummins 6-2
Rowlands has riding time (more than 14%)

I only included the 7 out of 10 matches with back points or riding time. I did not include the reversal (mat wrestling) at 157 and that was the difference in the match.

As far as how much time we spend on our feet (50%)
Bottom (25%) Top (25%).

During a match I would prefer 5 seconds on our feet and a 2 second pin with no escapes.

Sean
I totally agree with gutwrench in that wrestling on your feet is very very important. However, Tell Mitch Clark of Ohio State that top wrestling is not important and he might snap your face into the mat, spin, throw legs in and tech fall you in the first period from the top. I believe that is exactly what he did to Vertus Jones in the D-1 Finals a few years back. Tech fall with 4 turns from the top. I don't know, I guess it really depends on the strenghts and body style of the wrestler. Not all of them are like Mitch however, but there are quite a few that will hurt the best from the top.

P.S. I am not in the wrestling hall of fame of champions though (like gutwrench). So I don't know if my post is important without that credential. I am just on a high school wall as a state champ. Will you guys still listen to me please!!!!! hahahaha!
We have a has been/never really was guy from Russell that is in the National Wrestling Hall of Fame, it means nothing honestly
To quote gutwrench in an earlier post “only Blair Academy could compare to East Kansas”.

As far as the Dyer/Backes match goes, I am referring to their match at the 2002 Senior High School National Tournament in Cleveland. Backes won by more than one point during this meeting. Backes controlled the entire match and Dyer was never really in it because of all of the low percentage moves(stuff I wouldn't teach my dog to do) that he attempted. You know all of that great stuff he learned from the East Kansas Club. And yes, a person can control the entire match and only win by 1 or 2 points. If you watched the Grater/Cornejo match at the Expo Center in Topeka you know what I am talking about.

Gutwrench you are the last one on this forum that should tag someone with the comment of being ridiculous.
My P.S. is full of sarcasm to let some of you know... two post up!
Well Im glad your giving this klemm guy so much credit I have personally never heard of the guy but your giving credit when all them wrestlers were already good, so I would have to say they are the one's that made themselves better, and the coach that should be getting the credit for working with them guys is akin.
Remember great wrestlers make great coaches.
Thats true because I think you should know what to do once you've gotten to High School Thats what all the hard work of Kids, freestyle, ext, So you might not want to give all the glory to some guy in Eastern Kansas lol, So their ya go.
Mr. Rizo,

"Dyer was never really in it because of all of the low percentage moves(stuff I wouldn't teach my dog to do) that he attempted. You know all of that great stuff he learned from the East Kansas Club."


Lets not get carried away! That statement makes you look pretty stupid. Everyone who knows anything about wrestling in Kansas knows that East Kansas is, or was an outstanding club under the guidance of Coach Klemm and others. He was intense!

I think you should ask Eric Akin, Shawn Bunch, Zach Roberson,Joe Johnson, Justin Dyer, Austin Devoe, Tanner Gardner, Stewart Bogart, The McCormick Bros. etc. (the list goes on) what they think about Coach Klemm.

I am sure that they will all give much credit to Klemm!!!!!


gutwrench,

I have to agree with most of what you say, but coming on here and blasting fellow coaches and athletes is not the way to get your point across.

Tone it down a little bit and leave your name, then your comments will have much greater merit!!!
Okay then who is this klemm and were did he wrestle in high school and college?
Dyer was never in that match. Did you see the match I know I did since I wrestled right after him in the semis. It was a great match with Backes getting a takedown with a minute to go. What a butt-kickin.
Also ask any of the coaches that went to the tournament that year they will tell you a different story than you are saying.
I think highest goal of a wrestler is to be a Olympic champion, not a riding champion, how many Olympic champions win a match with riding time. In most cases, to have riding time, is to take a man down. I think we all need to set our goals, and the goals of the kids we coach, alittle higher than to beat a horse down and ride him for a point. THIS IS WAY WE ALL YELL TWO AND PUT TWO FINGERS UP WHEN A TAKEDOWN IS GIVEN. I could be wrong, but I want the best for my kids and takedowns are my thing. Don't reach for the moon, go beyond the stars.
Quote:
Originally posted by Luther Rizo:
To quote gutwrench in an earlier post “only Blair Academy could compare to East Kansas”.

As far as the Dyer/Backes match goes, I am referring to their match at the 2002 Senior High School National Tournament in Cleveland. Backes won by more than one point during this meeting..........
Actually Luther, that 2002 meeting at the NHSCA Senior Nationals was a 4-3 match too.

http://www.nhsca.com/wrestling/past_results/seniors_championships/2002_brackets.pdf
Gutwrench said:

"Gibby, those guys aren't DI AAs. Enough already from you and the Sunflower Gold. They're not EKWC in its hey day."

I never said they were D1 AA's, but pointed out there is a club (numerous actually) that have shared the vision of the importance of wrestling in the neutral position. I guess I implied it, sorry you couldn't read between the lines.

As for your Hall of Fame credentials - don't care really. Numerous people have made various Hall of Fames and are just idiots and had no sense of respect for the sport, those that have tried but didn't make it, or humanity. Ty Cobb is an example. Great player, an arse in the room. Mark McGwire - broke a lot of records, but now is under speculation of performance enhancement drugs. The NFL is loaded with them too. This is not to say that your impact on the sport (whatever it is) was not an accomplishment. What I am saying is that such an honor does not dictate that we all bow to the "wrestling guru."

Some individuals that have had an impact on a sport they did not succeed in? Lou Holtz and Naismith come to mind. If I remember correctly - Holtz never played college football, but he's pretty good in the coaching ranks. And Naismith? Didn't play basket ball in college (cause he invented it).

The point I'm driving at is that outstanding coaches don't just come with various honors from their competitive days. You've implied you know what your talking about because your name is in Stillwater - wow.

The point I'm driving is that yes, Klemm was a great coach (for those that could afford it, another topic altogether). At the same time, coaches across the state have picked up or have been doing it for some time the belief that to be in the top of the game, neutral position has to be of top priority.

Oh sure, there are some coaches out there that haven't figured it out. Just like some Hall of Fame wrestlers haven't figured out that sitting in front of a computer, berating the state as a whole, has done nothing to better the style of Kansas and actually "produce All-Americans."

Hey, let me know when sitting on your rear produces you any AA's DI or otherwise. Then I'll follow suit and tell everyone I know that I'm following the practice of Hall of Fame wrestler and astute professor of the sport, Professor Turd.

Meanwhile, I'll be in the practice room doing it the way I know how.
Wow I just looked up Klemm on Stanfords Web Site He was a division 2 national qualifier and juco qualifier he must have been a stud lol, You guys talking this bum up you are pothetic they got good kids to come to the club enough said. lol you guys are a joke joke joke joke joke joke.
AC

The scale shouldn't be what he did as a competitor, but what he did as a coach.

Two different animals altogether. Your argument is about as absurd as someone saying, "I'm not playing for Notre Dame (in the early 90's), their coach wasn't even a football player."

I guess they don't teach logic in AC. But hey, you got a Walmart.
What are you talking about what did he do for them athletes they were already good fabby okay, your about dumb as all these other people talking this guy up like he's a savior.
Nice stats and lots of work there SmokeyCabin. Thank you for trying so hard to make the figures work to prove that wrestling on your feet is not the most important part of the sport. How do you explain no nearfalls in 2005 finals? I've heard it said that figures don't lie but liars always figure. We're all talking about this because KS coaches, in general, teach a grab a wrist and ride'em out style without working too hard on top and the refs are accomplices in this degradation of our sport. It bores me to tears and doesn't help our kids. You guys need to see to venture out of your state just a little to see what's making the KC, MO kids so much better than what we've got in KS. Take a look at what Oak Park did to some of our better teams at Baldwin. Oak Park/Blue Springs Liberty and others are more consistent all over but especially from their feet. Great stances, active and heavy hands, superb hc series, underhook to snap down the head to front headlock series with knee taps, head in the hole, etc. Very good defense from neutral. Gibby, your tail feathers are ruffled because people in KS don't challenge each other like I'm challenging you. You and your hostile little camp claim I was just some guy typing away and not involved and pressed me into giving you a credential that you only get if you're a DI Champ, DI coach or DI AA and of course now you tell me that doesn't matter and that I still don't know what I'm talking about. That's fine and about what I expect. I guess DI Champs, AAs and coaches can't compete with the vast knowledge that we have here from the KS wrestling intelligentsia. Just like Klemm didn't have squat to do with helping to develop the three NCAA finalists in 2 years during their HS years. By the way, if any of you can tell me about one other KS coach who has had more NCAA finalists in their career let alone two years, I'll retire from this board. It's ludicruous and insulting that Klemm isn't getting credit from some of you and it backs up my earlier statement that he was not well thought of by the KS wrestling intelligentsia who dissed him by leaving him off freestyle teams. This isn't about me but my opinion that KS needs to evolve and it's clear that some of you have big problems with change. Good. I'm happy I pushed you out of your comfort zones.
Gutwrench1,

It has been so long I thought you changed your handle or were having a coming out party.

Coach McCarthy
Gutwrench1 you almost brought a tear to my eye then i threw up you are a panzy, and how are the kc Mo kids so much better just because they whip up on the Kc area wrestlers, well that would be why they are so much ahead of the game their wrestling all the kids that get second and third place at state, lol keep on truckin.
Gutwrench1,

We are taking a dozen kids to Brute nationals this weekend. Also, I must get going we are having practice tonight. Who are you working with tonight to make them better wrestlers. This will be the 4th practice this week I have worked with kids in the Kansas City area. If you want to see heavy hands I am demonstrating the firemans tonight and need a partner. That would be a takedown feet to back.

Coach McCarthy
acbulldog-

Who are you to say anything about anyone? You have yet to leave your name and are either a washed up former wrestler, a JV wrestler, or a bad varsity wrestler because I remember you posted during a saturday of a two day tournament that Ark City was in. You of all people should shut your mouth.
Coach Klemm Never told the boys he was working with not to pin. I have seen him over and over show the "ultimate" pin and that was at Freestyle Practices.

Statistics Do Not Lie.

PREP Careers - Of complete wrestlers
Justin Dyer - 145-3 career - 73 pins over 50%
Joe Johnston - 160-12 career - 92 pins 57.5%
Shawn Bunch - 150-10 career - holds career takedowns, career nearfalls, and CAREER FALLS
Almost forgot:
Zach Roberson - 153-0 with just 109 Pins
Gutwrench, email me at TanMan567@hotmail.com, I want to know who you are
Gutwrench,

First of all, my best friend's name is in the wrestling Hall of Fame in Stillwater, and he never even wrestled in college, so being a D1 champ, coach, or AA is not a requirement for your name to be in the hall.

2nd- I agree with what Gibby said in support of Klemm. It doesn't matter what he did as a competitor, but as a coach- and I am certain that he was ONE contributor to the success of his former wrestlers.

3rd- I again ask the question, what have you done to solve this issue, besides posting here? Get involved with the athletes and work to get the change you would like to see.

4th- ACbulldog, Oak Park would have beat any team in the State of Kansas. I personally saw every team state champ wrestle this year, and no single team from Kansas would have given them a run. They were very impressive, especially from their feet (and they were missing 2 varsity wrestlers at Baldwin).

My only issue with you gutwrench is the fact that you lump all Kansas coaches/officials together and then degrade them. All you talk about is D1's, but the fact is the vast majority of our wrestlers are never going to attain that level of wrestling. We do the best we can for the wrestlers we have (because we are here for the athletes). Until you come coach at the High School level and try to get kids who have never wrestled before ready for varsity in 2-3 years I don't think you have much room for criticism. And if you can do better, do it.
gutwrench=hicks?
Gutwrench = Legend of wrestling Danny Hodge?
Well, whoever Gutwrench is, he's right. One of the biggest problems that Kansas wrestling has is the fact that it refuses to objectively look past its own borders. Perhaps if it did it would get better. Gutwrench, keep up the good work -- face it guys, if he didn't want to see it get better, he wouldn't bother, or did that not occur to anyone?
VS Vike coach -

I get a different impression......to me the message he originally sent was that we are doomed because Klemm left.....
VS Vike Coach-

I don't know what you mean by objectively looking past our own borders. I know that I, along with many of the coaches I am familiar with are willing to learn from anyone, from anywhere, as long as the technique is sound.
Coachtwink when did I ever say that oak park couldn't beat any of the teams in the state you might want to get your facts straight before you open your mouth.
I'm not denying that you are that forward thinking coachtwink. But you and I both know a lot who aren't, and that's the problem.

and ac...chill, will you?
Man, you all getting a little personal, Tanner now don't you hurt that boy when you find out who he is.....

Its hard to be good on top if your never there. You need to take them down first and with the option start now days, that even helps the guy good on his feet. Top wrestling in freestyle is important because any turn you get makes your opponent have to turn you or take you down twice to tie it.

Yes we do miss Klemm, but saying that the college coach's or high school coaches had nothing to do with this year's finalist is crazy. Klemm is good and will remain good because he is out there learning new stuff and polishing his old stuff, he goes to work and works hard at it just like a lot of coach's in Kansas do.

As for getting out of the Kansas area that is a KHSAAAHSAAAHSAAAAA problem.

Our coaches are some of the best in the nation and we are doing things to make them better, like the coach's camp going on at Hays during the Southern Plains Camp.
I don't think I have heard of any great wrestler who said I have had only one coach teach me everything I know about wrestling.

...To learn everything we must learn from everybody.

Most of all the kids have to have the interest, we can't force them to be good, it takes hard work. They have to want to practice and go above and beyond the average.

Its a team effort, just like it takes a village to raise a child it takes a family to create a Champion, and the Kansas Family of Wrestling is a darn good one to belong to...


Coach Peterman
Quote:
Originally posted by acbulldog:
Gutwrench1 you almost brought a tear to my eye then i threw up you are a panzy, and how are the kc Mo kids so much better just because they whip up on the Kc area wrestlers, well that would be why they are so much ahead of the game their wrestling all the kids that get second and third place at state, lol keep on truckin.
AC,
I guess I must have misinterpreted your statement above.

Quote:
Originally posted by P. Pitbull's Old Dog:
Its a team effort, just like it takes a village to raise a child it takes a family to create a Champion, and the Kansas Family of Wrestling is a darn good one to belong to...


Coach Peterman
Here Here coach peterson!
Quote:
Originally posted by VS Vike coach:
Well, whoever Gutwrench is, he's right. One of the biggest problems that Kansas wrestling has is the fact that it refuses to objectively look past its own borders. Perhaps if it did it would get better. Gutwrench, keep up the good work -- face it guys, if he didn't want to see it get better, he wouldn't bother, or did that not occur to anyone?
Coach Holmes:

Excuse me for asking, but how many high school State Champions did you produce while in Kansas?

Better yet, how many high school state placers did you develop?

Back in your home state of Iowa, with the exception of Sean Stender, it was out of state wrestlers (Gallick from Arizona, Johnston from Kansas and Perry from Oklahoma) who placed highest for your state universities at the NCAA tournament in St. Louis this past year.

Post Gable era, wrestling in the state of Iowa does not fair much, if any, better than Kansas. The last two NCAA Division I champions for any Iowa school was Cliff Moore from Iowa and Zach Roberson from Kansas. Let us not forget Cael Sanderson is from Utah.

In my humble opinion, Kevin Klemm and Wes Harding are both missed.

With all due respect, based on your coaching achievements, I do not believe any Kansas coaches need to listen to your gibberish.
AC quoted as saying:

"What are you talking about what did he do for them athletes they were already good fabby okay, your about dumb as all these other people talking this guy up like he's a savior."

To begin with - a grammar check. My corrections in ().

What are you talking about(?)(W)hat did he do for (those) athletes(?) (T)hey were already good (,) fabby (,) okay (!) (Y)ou(')re about (as) dumb as all these other people (,) talking this guy up like he's a savior.

First off, if you are going to reference to people as being "dumb", you might try not having 12 grammar errors within an approximate 40 word post.

Second, as for talking him up as if he were a savior? I don't see where I ever did that. In fact, I did acknowledge his accomplishments with excellent athletes.

I could have just as easily pointed out that his accomplishments with a handful (pretty big handful mind you) of athletes in a Metro (KCK and KCMO) well over 1 million. We could have expected more in a metro that size and a side of the metro more dominate didn't even come to his club. But what would that have proved?

It seems to me AC, the only hero worship going on in here is your 12 error posting in attempt to berate me (look it up in the town dictionary) in an effort to show intellectual superiority.

Tell you what, I'll come down to Ark City this weekend and you and I can have a battle of wits. I figure I'll have outmanned you by the time you supersize my fries. Now which side of town is McDonalds on? And please, make sure you wash your hands before you handle my food.

NEXT!
Richard -- so glad to see you're still alive....

And for the record, while I was unable to get any placewinners while I was in Kansas, in my first year back in Iowa, I had two, which was a first for my high school.

As for the rest, you're right for the moment. Unfortunatly, the best Iowa high school wrestlers are leaving the state. Both of the four-time champs that were crowned this past season along with another top recruit are all going to Virginia Tech where Tom Brands (hey, he's from Iowa!) just finished his first year as head coach.

It is unfortunate that all three of our DI programs are struggling right now. On the other hand, it's nice to be somewhere that at least HAS a DI program as opposed to....well, whatever.

Thanks for your comments Richard; now get back to getting people fired, or whatever it is you do. And, of course, you have a nice day.
Richard -- sorry to trouble you again, but there is something I would like to add.

I was, in fact, quite proud of my accomplishments at both Immaculata and Maur Hill. In both cases I took over programs that were in abyssmal shape and managed to raise numbers and a bit of pride in the program. With no middle school or kids programs to draw from, many of the kids I had never seen a wrestling match until the first one they were in as freshmen. And quite a few of those kids went on to have pretty good careers, considering.

And I am also quite proud of the sharing agreement we had at Imac for two years with KSSB, giving several visually challenged kids (including three-time state qualifer Ronnie Hawthorne) an opportunity they may not have had otherwise.

We were on the verge of building something very special at Imac when I made the biggest mistake of my professional life by leaving at going to Maur Hill. Would love to have that one over again, but it worked out fine as I was able to return home and begin to rebuild here.

While I realize that when it comes to judging professionalism and ability you are the Lord High Executioner of Circle and all tremble in your presense, but your opinion of me is pretty meaningless. I find it extremely sad that rather than argue a point logically, you attack my abilities. Not sad for me, but for you.

I made a great many friends in the Kansas wrestling community and had many great times while I was there. Nothing, not even your pettiness, can change that. If, in your mind, the only the thing a coach can be judged on is medals from Wichita or Hays, then you're right, I was a failure in Kansas. But then again, I have two medalists in Iowa already!

But Richard, I am proud of what we did at Imac and KSSB, and not even you can change that. You can judge that anyway you'd like Richard, but I really don't care about you gibberish, either.
Sorry Gibby never said I was a English major but you could come down to o'll ark city an I could give you a lesson on wrestling if you would like, did I say that right chump. And your from topeka you was ever any good from their?
Look at the Senior National Team Standings as of right now, the nation's elite going at it....

1 73.5 OH
2 68.5 NJ
2 68.5 NY
4 66 CA
5 62 MN
6 57 PA
7 54.5 IA VS Vikes Coach must be in some competition to earn 2 medals in this competition
8 53 KS Kansas must be riding their way to the top? Right ON TOP of Missouri
9 50.5 MO Looks like they are on the end of the being rode by the KS boys, who are on top and in control
10 47.5 IL
11 46 MI
12 45.5 UT
13 42 FL
14 40.5 VA
15 33 WV
16 32.5 OK Why so low? Ususally very strong in national competiton all levels?
17 32 CO
18 27 SD
19 26 WI
20 25 IN
21 24 AZ
22 22 NC
23 20.5 GA
24 20 MA
24 20 MD
24 20 TN
27 18 TX
28 17.5 NM
29 16.5 DE
30 14 NV
31 12 CT
32 11 AK
32 11 LA
32 11 NE
35 10 WA
36 6 OR
36 6 RI
36 6 WY
39 4 AL
39 4 NH
39 4 VT
42 3 KY
43 2 ID
43 2 SC

Overall I'd say that KS is well represented and showing they aren't all lazy riders, we must be able to compete on a national scale if we're up there so high, you don't get they high just taking people down.......
Hey guys:

Just saw this and have been skimming through it.
I think it takes many people to make great wrestlers and great people. This includes coaches, parents and teachers.

Kevin does not need to be defended here but let me say that he got people to look at the possibilities of being a great wrestler. To do that you have to go where you find the best competition. He always wanted his boys to find the best and to compete.

He did train kids from the kindergarden level to the olympic level. He was mat side for their matches. Many names you mentioned had their first experience in wrestling at East Kansas.

Finally, lets give credit to all our coaches that have given their time and talent to help
kids become men and perform in a sport that they love, whether they become olympic champions
or novice champions
Hey Bronco -- since you like numbers, let me show you a few...

Through the results posted as on 9 am Saturday:
— The 11 Iowa wrestlers in 9 weights have a record of 19-5
— The 24 Kansas wrestlers in 13 weights have a record of 29-26

That averages out to 4.95 team points each for each Iowan and 1.55 per Kansan

The bottom line is that to us, Senior Nationals is not that big of a deal, but that the kids that go are pretty successful.

And yes, there was some great competition for my two medalists. Thank you for asking
Excuse me, that was 34 Kansas wrestlers, not 24 -- my bad
Quote:
Originally posted by VS Vike coach:
Excuse me, that was 34 Kansas wrestlers, not 24 -- my bad
Coach Holmes:

Wrong again! There are 37 Kansas wrestlers entered.
Topeka is not the hotbed of wrestling. It depends on what you think is good. A few who I think were pretty good from their (THERE):
Scott Trembley Topeka West- 2X State Champ
Darian Terry- Topeka West NAIA champ
Scott Murray Washburn Rural 2X state champ
Paul Lencewski Seaman state champ
Jason Puderbaugh Seaman state champ
Justin Glasgow Seaman state champ
Larry Perez Sr. Topeka state champ
Deland Shefield state champ
Jerry Palubinski state champ
Jeremy Glassman Highland Park state champ
Ken Hertzell High park state champ
Beau Vest state champ NAIA champ more than once
Larry Perez Jr. 2X state champ JR. greco/frestlyle AA
Aaron Meggeson Shawnee Heights state champ 2X finalist
Tyler Gonzales SH state champ 2X finalist
Phil Hart SH state champ 3X placer
Blake Malloy SH state champ 3x placer
Tanner Gardner 2X undefeated state champ, Jr. Greco champ, D1 qualifier
And then those 2 brothers from Highland Park you may have heard of:
Terry Douglas
Melvin Douglas
Richard, you're right --- the three I missed were each 0-1 which makes it a 29-29 mark for Kansas. Thanks so much for correcting me on that one.

Also, I missed one of the Iowa kids; there are actually 12 instead of 11. The one I missed (Kyle Anson at 125) had two pins which raised the Iowa total to 21-5 for Day 1.

Glad I have you around to correct things for me Richard! Keep up the fine work.

P.S. -- Nice wins by Ettelson and Borschel this round as well
AC Bulldog....

"Sorry Gibby(,) (I) never said I was a(n) English major(,) but you could come down to o'll(spelling - it's "ole", a slang term for old) (A)rk (C)ity an I could give you a lesson on wrestling (,) if you would like (? - separate two questions with the question mark) (D)id I say that right chump(?) And you(')re from topeka (,) you (not you nimrod, "who") was ever any good from their (correct spelling "there")?"

First off Bulldog, you don't have to be an "English major" to know basic grammar skills that are taught at the grade school level. Question marks after questions. Capitalizing the names of towns, especially the one you're from. Your vs. you're. Basic grammar structures taught by 5th grade in every school district across the state - except AC.

Second, history seems to have been a weak point as well. Melvin Douglas, the last Kansan wrestler to make it to the Olympics came from "drum roll please......" Topeka! As you were learning your lines for successful employment, Kansas History went right by you in terms of sport history.

How did the song go again? The one you sing at work? Oh I remember!

"I work at Burger King, Making single Whoppers, I wear paper hats.

"Would you like an apple pie with that? Would you like an apple pie with that?"

"Ding fries are done, Ding fries are done. I gotta run, I gotta run....."
Don't you just hate it when gutwrench1 and VS vikes coach are proven right? If Kansas gets any worse from their feet they will be challenging the likes of NY, OH and CA for national team championships!

Team Standings Prior to Championship Final Results!

1 218 NY

2 202.5 OH

3 182 CA

4 176 NJ

5 148 IA

6 137 KS

7 122 MN

8 118.5 MI

9 112.5 IL

10 112 UT

11 93.5 MO

12 93 PA

13 92 WV

14 87.5 OK

15 81 FL

16 73 VA

17 68.5 SD

18 62.5 MD

19 54 IN

20 47.5 CO

21 47 TN

22 46.5 GA

23 46 WI

24 42 AZ

25 33 NC

26 30.5 DE

27 28 MA

28 27 NE

28 27 NV

30 26.5 AL

31 25.5 NM

32 25 KY

32 25 TX

34 22 WY

35 20 ID

36 18 OR

37 16.5 SC

38 16 AK

38 16 CT

40 15 WA

41 13 LA

42 11 NH

42 11 VT

44 6 RI

45 4 ND

46 2 MT
Yea they are right arent they?? We placed 6th in the nation and they are right because Kansas wrestling is bad on their feet?? I say that is a **** good job this year. It is better than the past few years and was Coach Klemm apart of their success?? Nope, none of these guys wrestled at EKWC.
Gutwrentch according to the results of the high school nationals you are no longer allowed to post anything regarding how good Kansas wrestlers on their feet or otherwise. This has to be the funniest thing I have seen in a long while. And whats even better is many of the Kansas guys wrestling at Nationals are NOT going Division I, and believe me its not because College DI coaches don't want them.
Gutwrench-

NHSCA Finals at 145lbs. Dustin Schlatter said, "I had to ride him, it's what won me the match" when two of the best on their feet are at a stalemate, you have to be able to ride.... This goes to show that you must be able to ride to be a National Champion, as he upsets #1 ranked Brent Metcalf.
Old gutty must be crying right about now.
riding means nothing, except a national title
VS Vike coach- in earlier posts you said you coached and helped produce a good program at Immaculata and Maur Hill. But i know Maur hill dont have a program and i'm not forsure in Immaculata did this year?
Iowa finishes one up on us with a third of the guys== big deal, our best did very well, and the others showed that they had the interest to compete and drive farther to do it than the Iowa guys did. Why did so many of the Iowans that were qualified to compete stay home? was it out of lack of interest? seems really weird to me that so many of them stayed home. Congratulations to them, but I am really proud of our improvement, whether we got any takedowns or not.
Those KS boys represented KS very well in Cleveland and congratulations all of them. It's true that KS took more kids than almost any state and I think had third or fourth biggest roster but I'm not going to use that to take anything from their success. Participation is one measure of success. It was a super job and this senior class was very talented and every one of those kids had a couple of KS coaches to credit. Congratulations to them all. I understand that had Grater not got taken down twice in the last 22 secs of his match in the quarters that he would have won and been an AA. Wrestling on your feet is critical. I stand by my position about the general style of KS wrestling. If you are one takedown better on your feet and can get away, you can win 100% of the time. If you are not better on your feet but equal, then like Schlatter says riding can make the difference. But, do you have any idea how good Schlatter is from his feet to match Metcalf? The rank and file KS wrestlers are not as good on their feet as they are on top because coaches don't value it as much as they should and refs let the top guy stall. The KS elite that represented us in Cleveland have traveled outside of the state and been exposed to more aggressive shots and counters. Again, congrats to the talented senior class from KS.
Nigel,
Are you serious? Do you really think anyone would believe that our best kids who can compete on the national hs level would rather wrestle DII, NAIA and JUCO than DI? Talk about funny. If you have the same scholarship at Neb-Lincoln as say Neb-Kearney and you go to the latter then you might have a little dain bramage. Nigel, tell me the one about the guy who passed on MLB to play single A ball. I love that story.
Nigel, I'm going to stop posting as soon as you or anybody produces a KS hs or club coach who's had more than 3 NCAA DI finalists in two years like coach Klemm.
Quote:
Originally posted by gutwrench1:
Nigel,
Do you really think anyone would believe that our best kids who can compete on the national hs level would rather wrestle DII, NAIA and JUCO than DI?
Yes Gutwrentch as a matter of fact I do, and not only that but I and everyone else here in Kansas have seen it happen time and time again. But it doesn't just stop with wrestling it extends to other sports as well. Some of our best wrestlers have gone to college to compete in a completly different sport i.e Jeff Boyle. How you compare scholarships is a matter of discussion. As you can imagine a "full ride" scholarship to a DI school is worth more money than a "full ride" to a similar PUBLIC DII school. As it has been mentioned many times before some kids just don't want to wrestle DI, its not because they can't. Look at Ross Taplin, he was 4th this year at Senior Nationals and he is wrestling DII at Omaha because he likes the program, the coach, and two other guys from our home town are up there right now. If you don't think he could compete in DI with a few years of development than I would say you are the crazy one. By the way you can't compare MLB to wrestling, they are not even remotely the same. Some day gut, you will understand that there may be more important things for kids to accomplish than wrestling @ a DI college program and most likely having minimal sucess.
All,

I don't want to touch the debate about wrestling on the feet, etc. But as far as the kids going to college issue I have a question/idea...

Could KS wrestlers be choosing to go to smaller schools because Kansas does not have any Division I wrestling programs? You know a lot of kids prefer to stay closer to home for college because of a variety of reasons.

My personnel opinion is that it would be great if the KS colleges could establish some wrestling programs. After watching the high school wrestling in KS and helping coach in the little kids programs for the past two years I am thouroghly impressed with the number of wrestlers and the level of wrestling in KS. It's a shame that our kids have to grow up wrestling knowing that they have to go out of state to wrestle when it comes time for college.

Just some thoughts.
I think you're correct, Shawn ..... and then we have to become flyhalfs and wingers!
Gut,

Using your thought process, then a wrestler should always chose OK St. over Harvard because after all, OSU is better at wrestling.

Getting an education is secondary, right? Tell that to the Harvard boys. Granted, OSU doesn't recruit Harvard types - nor does Harvard recruit OSU types. But just suppose they did.

Are you saying that a wrestler should withhold from Harvard? What kind of advice is that?

The initial argument was D1 doesn't recruit Kansas. I say so what. Getting an education is most important. I just wished AC would figure that out. It might help him become "fry chief" at the local burger shop. If he'd just follow the OSHA codes around that darn fry machine.

"Ding" fries are done.

Note -This post was edited after notice was sent that I had two errors. My bad and thanks.
Coach Gibson is absolutly correct in what he says. And I will add to that. Many of our wrestlers are choosing to go to schools not DI because the schools they do choose have a degree that they wish to earn. As I have said before there really is no future beyond college wrestling for 98% of all the participants, so kids now are looking for an education which they can use once they graduate.
Gut,

When are you putting on your takedown clinic so the kids and coaches of Kansas can learn from your plethora of knowledge?
Hey even with a bad shoulder I'll wrestle a takedown match with him, and show him just how well we here in Kansas do on our feet, I know I was only taken down in high school maybe 20 times, most of them my freshman and sophmore years.
News flash here Gibby. Harvard is a DI school and had an NCAA champ in 2004. Harvard is part of the IVY League and wrestles in the EIWA conference with Penn, Cornell, Lehigh, etc. DII, III and NAIA are fine and it's great we have these other choices and wrestling programs. I don't mean to put them down. But, you don't get a crack at winning THE national title and doing it live in front of millions on ESPN when you go to a place like UNO or FHS. Outside of winning the Olympics, the NCAA-DIs are as big as it gets. Now, who among the KS wrestling intelligentsia would argue against that statement? Our wrestlers aren't choosing UNO, Ft. Hayes, LaBette, Neosho because these are better academic choices than DI schools as Nigel would have us believe. That's bunk. And, it's not because they don't think they're good enough. More KS kids would wrestle DI if they had opportunity. What we ought to be doing instead of wasting time here is petitioning KSU or KU and enlisting the Big XII wrestling coaches who want more teams. The coaches have the ears of the Big XII ADs. The Big XII coaches are furious about only getting 36 qualifiers. It's in their interests to have more teams like the Big Ten which gets 70-something qualifiers. Who among the KS wrestling intelligentsia is up for working on that? You guys all know B Smith, J Smith, Manning, Douglas and Spates because you've told me how much they like the KS style of wrestling. So, who among you can take some time away from teaching kids how to stall and build a business plan to present at the next Big XII coaches meeting?
penny-wise wrote: "Gut, When are you putting on your takedown clinic so the kids and coaches of Kansas can learn from your plethora of knowledge?"

Dear Penny Wise and Pound Foolish
Abundance of knowledge does not teach men to be wise.
Heraclitus (540 BC - 480 BC)
So gut, do you mean to suggest to me that the level of academics at any given DI school is always better than a DII or other college level, because the last time I checked the only thing separating collegiate levels is the number of students attending, not by the quality of teachers or programs they offer. In fact many people suggest they get better knowledge from attending a smaller university because they can interface with their teachers who aren't busy with 400 other students, and a whole host of other things. If you are truly suggesting that the more students who attend a school correlates to the level of education a person recieves from said school, I would say you've got some issues.
Gutwrench:

Quote:
Originally posted by gutwrench1:
DII, III and NAIA are fine and it's great we have these other choices and wrestling programs. I don't mean to put them down.
Then don't!

Quote:
Originally posted by gutwrench1:
Outside of winning the Olympics, the NCAA-DIs are as big as it gets. Now, who among the KS wrestling intelligentsia would argue against that statement?
No one will argue that the D1's are as big as it gets in folk style wrestling, but maybe many of our top athletes have other priorities and are working towards them. Or maybe they are tired of wrestling. I know when I graduated I thought I was ready to be done with the sport (not that I could have gone D1 anyway, but probably lowly D2, NAIA, or JUCO). The point is you don't know these kids, but pretend to speak on their behalf. Why aren't they the ones on here posting about how Kansas wrestling has held them back?

Quote:
Originally posted by gutwrench1:
More KS kids would wrestle DI if they had opportunity. What we ought to be doing instead of wasting time here is petitioning KSU or KU and enlisting the Big XII wrestling coaches who want more teams. The coaches have the ears of the Big XII ADs.
If that is so, why didn't K-State add wrestling in 1998 when they had a $2 million dollar pledge in order to start the sport, and more support on the way? The reason is Title IX and money! The AD's aren't interested in wrestling at the Universities that do not already have it because it will not make money, and that is really what they are concerned about right now.

Quote:
Originally posted by gutwrench1:
So, who among you can take some time away from teaching kids how to stall and build a business plan to present at the next Big XII coaches meeting?
I am not currently teaching any kids to stall, and I never have. I am currently busy teaching kids about Acids and Bases (Honors Chemistry), the Gas Laws and Solutions (General Chemistry), and Taxonomy and Classification (Biology). What you are forgetting is the vast majority of coaches you have been insulting here are first and foremost educators. We spend more time than you will ever know creating lesson plans, grading papers, contacting parents, and tutoring struggling students before and after school. Since you are the Hall of Famer, and surely carry more weight than us stalling Kansas coaches, go ahead and create your business plan and present it to the AD's. We will see how that goes over.

I have said this before, until you become an active participant, you will never see the change you want to see.

I think my signature applies here.
"I don't mean to put them down. But, you don't get a crack at winning THE national title and doing it live in front of millions on ESPN when you go to a place like UNO or FHS. Outside of winning the Olympics, the NCAA-DIs are as big as it gets." gutwrench1


You are saying that D1 is as big as it gets? Okay,what about the guys who are talented enough for D1's but dont have the grades? That is a point there and tell me the answer to this one here. Josh Baldridge is a 4x state champion, he is going to attend Labette Community Collge and wrestle for the best coach in the nation. Tell me why he is doing this, because some guys simply do not want to go to a D1 and I will tell you this now, all wrestlers have their own style and I will have to say that LCC wrestling is a take down team as well as our riding ability. so you can sit there and say that every wrestler is wanting to wrestle on a D1 team?? NO, I dont think so or else or our best would be there. If you don't know who they are take a look at the AA's from SR. Nationals. Not one of them is going D1. Oh yea the point I'm trying to make is for some wrestlers a JUCO is as big as it gets. Is there a problem with this? If so drive to SE corner of Kansas and step on the mat with the best team in the NATION! Where we are all about TAKING CARE OF BUSINESS.

P.S. Hey Gibby, how are them fries??
Quote:
Originally posted by gutwrench1:
...Are you serious? Do you really think anyone would believe that our best kids who can compete on the national hs level would rather wrestle DII, NAIA and JUCO than DI?..... .
ever hear of Marcus Lavessuer or Akeem Carter - both High School All-Americans....both quite content competing in DIII

Lavessuer is the starting quarteback and a 3X undefeated DIII national champ - who was recruited by practically every major DI wrestling program in the country - went to University of Minnesota and decided it wasn't for him. Doing just fine now. Carter was an NHSCA champ. and now a DIII champ.

How about Emmett Wilson for Montana State Northern. He only won the Hodge competing in NAIA. Won the Vegas Invite and Midlands - what a wuss he is, huh?

Carlton Hasselrig? He won 3 DII titles and wildcarded into the DI tourney, so he won that three times too.

Turk Lords? Cole Province? Mo Lawal? Stevie Williams? Mike Massenzio? ...........

Just because you aren't DI doesn't mean you aren't talented.

Might just mean that the athlete had more in mind wrestling DI. Maybe he wanted his parents to see him compete everytime out. Maybe he wanted to play two sports. Maybe he wanted a life besides wrestling 24/7 while trying to make Zalesky, Manning, Smith, etc. happy. Maybe he couldn't qualify academically.

Maybe......he just wanted to provide more fodder for gut to make an arse of himself with.


oh and one other thing....does anyone else find it interesting that the person preaching the importance of neutral position wrestling has an on-line moniker that represents a mat wrestling hold?
Lazaro Renoso wrestled for Carson Newman and never won a DII title, but beat John Smith at the Olympics and ended up placing 3rd.

Tom Erickson wrestled Juco
Another wrestler from Canada wrestled NAIA and won an olympic title.
Jody Strittmatter wrestled DII prior to wrestling at Iowa.
Ryan Lewis wrestled for DII prior to wrestling at Minnesota.
TJ Williams wrestled Juco.

There are plenty of great wrestlers out there that didn't start out in Division I.
Bunch and Johnston will both be guests at Matside Freestyle this spring/summer. . in June.
Sweet, Akin are you still available to Coach a Tag-Team? You aren't as big as Swayz so you're at a little disadvantage, but still a stud. Best of luck with the club this year.
Gut please...

Don't try to insult me with the Harvard being a D1 rhetoric. I know their classification. And you're right, they had a Champion last year. I saw it.

The point I was driving was that if all things are equal, under your astute knowledge, a wrestler should take OSU every time - to which I reply, that's just stupid.

I had a wrestler his junior year get letters from Columbia. No other D1 wanted him. Columbia wanted him because he was also an outstanding student. He's doing well for himself right now, majoring in aeronotical engineering at WSU - one of the top schools in that field.

He decided to hang the shoes up and prepare himself for an lucrative career. According to your posts, this was stupid.

Jordon - the fries are good. Can't wait to play another frisbee golf match.
Quote:
Originally posted by gutwrench1:
penny-wise wrote: "Gut, When are you putting on your takedown clinic so the kids and coaches of Kansas can learn from your plethora of knowledge?"

Dear Penny Wise and Pound Foolish
Abundance of knowledge does not teach men to be wise.
Heraclitus (540 BC - 480 BC)
So, your saying that your abundance of knowledge won't help us become wise. Okay.

Also, KSU or KU won't ever get a wrestling program unless Title IX is done away with or revised. Why do you think they added equestrian rather than softball or soccer? Because they ended up with more scholarship numbers by adding equestrian. How can you even recruit for equestrian? I don't know of any high school that has that sport.
Hay House:

I was at Imac from 1998 through 2002 -- the program was dropped after the 2002-03 season due to a lack of numbers. I was also head coach at Maur Hill for the 2002-03 season, and my understanding is that they dropped it this past season.

I have always regretted leaving Imac. It was a good school with good people in it. If I'd stayed a couple of more years I probably could have had it on better footing before I left. Sadly, I baled when I lost a good group of seniors and our sharing agreement with Kansas State School for the Blind ended. Would love to have that one over again. Not that I'm not happy here in Iowa, but I would have liked to have left the Immaculata program in a survivable position.
And, as to whether or not they were good -- that's kind of a relative term. We managed to get kids to state at Imac pretty much every year, we had kids go to camp out of state two years in a row, and we were --- by the 2001-02 season -- competitive in most of the tournaments we were in. That's why I said that if I'd stayed longer, who knows.

As for Maur Hill, that's another story; the year before I came they had six kids out -- I started the season with 30 and finished with 22. When you start with next to nothing, that's pertty good.
YEA! I had the chance to go to a D1 school and wrestle this past year gut, I instead went where I knew I could get a national title as a team and concentrate on my grades, oh yea and perfect my takedowns because I am horrible on the mat cannot ride someone and cannot be ridden.Thats funny right there I dont care who you are.

Gibby- You should try the burger's too they are good. I will be in town this weekend to beat you in golf.
VS Vike Coach

One thing that hurt Imaculata, there was not a kids wrestling program in Leavenworth.

When Leavenworth had a kids program, IMAC was a state contender in Class 3 during the mid 80s, with greats like Chris Bolin and Scott
Rieck.

I'm sure VS Vike coach had to develop everything he had at IMAC and Maur Hill. It is a shame they dropped there program.
We went from being on the verge of dropping the program to 15 kids my last year there. That was the battle I always fought there. I am very happy back in Iowa, but my one regret is not finishing what I started at Immaculata. Maur Hill was a no-win situation and I should have figured that out early on. Had I stayed where I belonged, a lot of things would have been better.

Thank you for your kind works Scholar.
I would like to comment on the idea of getting wrestling at KSU or KU.... I know there are a lot of huge hurdles to get over to even start to address the issue. I also understand the challenges with Title IX. The implementation of Title IX has hurt a lot of collegiate wrestling programs but for what it's worth here are a couple of thoughts/potential options.

1. Grass Roots Approach: There is an increased number of girls participating in wrestling. When I lived in Hawaii they had girls only high school wrestling teams. With the number of girls wrestling in the little kids programs one could potentially increase that number by adding high school girls wrestling teams (girls wrestling other girls teams). I know and accept all the challenges with doing something like that, but, if you could achieve that then you could make a push at the college level to not only start a men's wrestling program but also a women's program. This helps counter-act the Title IX issues. Just some food for thought.

2. As far as the argument about why kids go to certain level (DI, DII, DII, etc) schools...I don't think you can definatively answer why people choose which school to attend. There are entirely too many variables. My point in my earlier post was that currently Kansas produces a great number of wrestlers and a great number of good wrestlers that could wrestle at the DI level. The problem is that they do not even have an option to stay in KS and wrestle at the DI level. It sure would be nice if they had that option.
Okay, hold the pressses....

Vikes - finish what you started? When I coached at Seaman, we wrestled your tourney because we needed one more tourney. Thanks for letting us in by the way.

But to insinuate that Imac was on the verge is dishonest. Nothing against you coach, but lets be real.

"And, as to whether or not they were good -- that's kind of a relative term." Success is in itself, relative. Being good or not is not relative. You either win or lose. Records prove the point.

Don't try to pretend, with the "state qualifier" rhetoric that IMAC was doing anything. After breezing through the tourney, I noticed by the end of the 1st round of consolations, your wrestlers were towel tappers. Wins and losses are not relative.

And by adding the success you've recently had in Iowa is dishonest too. We both know that there are kids we create and kids we fine tune.

For example, my 1st year as an assistant, I coached a state champ. He probably would have done it regardless. All I did was fine tune him. My second year as a head coach, I had a state champ. He was a great athlete, but knew nothing of the sport. I created him - well actually, we created each other.

Jordon--184, affectionally given the title "retard state champ" would probably attest that his life has drastically changed since working with me. I won't say for the better because that's a "relative" term.

The point is that state qualifiers are not a benchmark of success, no matter where you are. This is nothing to "hang your hat on." Whoopie, great, yada yada yada. In fact, when I interview with schools and we talk about wrestling, I don't talk about qualifiers at all. I talk about state placers and champions and my impact, if at all, on those individuals.
Kansas Kids are not doing to bad on the National/Regional Level

The Results Are Available For the Juniors and Sophmores at:
http://www.bruteadidasnationals.com

The Junior Class - 1st in team points
The Sophmore Class - 2nd in team points
The Freshman Class - Not up yet - but with 6 or 7 champs this class should be up there in team points - Good job Team Kansas
Gibby -- that's fine; you're entitled to you opinion.

But, for your information, I was not the head coach at Imac the year you went to Seaman. The day you were there, only three of the kids I had the year before were even in uniform due to injuries and illnesses. I was at Maur Hill at that point. Unfortunatly, there were several kids at Imac who elected not to wrestle after I left -- despite my urgings against that. I'll be the first to say that any resemblence between what I had coached the previous year and what you saw the one day you saw the team in December of 2002 was purely coincidental.

As to my state qualifers here in Iowa, I have no intention of debating that here, just like I wouldn't bash you or your kids at Seaman. You have a fine program at Seaman and one you should be proud of -- as I am mine. I was not bragging on my talents, merely making a statement of fact.
In defense of VS Vike Coach, he had a tough situation at IMAC. I think his efforts their prolonged the inevitable.

No Kids program, no Junior high wrestling and probably no assistant coaches at a private school that losing it's attendance and was in a basketball town.

I know from personal experince in the early 90s they were having trouble finding a coach and I was told they might have folded then if they didn't get a coach.
Gibby thats why your so mad you coach at seaman, man that must suck, Whats the highest you ever placed at state thought so, and you coached one state champ you must be doing a fine job lol.
you talking about the dicksons, no one liked them because they beat everyone.
Gibby, I was good before I met you and you know it! But any how did we get started on bashing IMAC? And I thought at that tournament we went to which was a joke for both Maur Hill and IMAC, what together they had seven wrestler's?? Gibby you know better than to talk crap on people with " special problems". So before this gets out of hand lets just all act like adults and agree that 1) gutwrench1 has no clue what he is talking about and 2) VS vikes coach agrees with him and he probably does not even know what to think anymore 3) I was never a " retard state champ" I didnt qualify remember.
People like acbulldog are why Kansas gets the reputation of having a lot of stupid hicks.

Thank you acbulldog, you represent Ark City well.
"Ding fries are done, Ding fries are done."

"Bulldog's gotta run, Bulldog's gotta run."

As AC Bulldog so crisply wrote:

"Gibby(,) that(')s why you(')r(e) so mad. You coach(ed) at (S)eaman (-) man that must suck(.) What(')s the highest you ever placed at state(?) (T)hought so(.) (A)nd you coached one state champ(.) (Y)ou must be doing a fine job(,) lol.(correction "have done," I've been gone for two seasons.)"

Ladies and gentlemen - do you see what happens when you close the liquor stores and saloons on election day? Things like this happen. Oh wait, Ark City might not have elections today, my bad. They couldn't have elections today if they wanted - no beans for the bean counter.

Things to consider while keeping a watchful eye on AC as he mixes my blizzard/cyclone/tornado or whatever you call those things in AC - remember, I want two scoops of Butterfinger and wash your hands before you make mine:

1.If you don't have anything intellegent or witty to come at me with, then don't. I know, I know, it's hard to distinguish down in AC. Here's how you know - look at your grade card. D may stand for "Diploma," but you'll want to have one of those earlier letters, like "A" or "B" across the top before you're a challenge. Wait, that's Ark City - scratch that. See #2.

2. If your family runs the blue light at K-Mart, the slurpie machine at Quik Trip, or is helping slash prices at Walmart, you might want to reconsider a battling of wits.

3. Please do not "hog up" all the time at the local library so you can regurgitate every stupid high school dreamlander down there's favorite line while changing the oil in my car at the local Jiffy Lube, "I remember you, we beat you in state that one year." Wonderful, now my car takes 10W - 30, do you need me to write it down?

You see AC, what you lack is a unique sense of humor. Your bantering may be similar to that of Uncle Pete (I think that's his name - from Napolean Dynamite), but unlike the actor that got paid lots of money, well I hope you are figuring out what I'm saying.
we don't have a kmart or quick trip but we do have the most state championships in high school wrestling in kansas history.........................
When those of you question the caliber of Kevin Klemm. Ask Eric Aiken who he wanted in his corner while going at it with Henson in the Olympic Trial Finals or probably the majority of his bigtime matches from the time he was in junior high on. Those of us who were involved with Kansas wrestling 15 years ago know how Kevin was dissed by our summer programs. Fact was that high school coaches that were more interested in making money during the summer off of camps then to have the best possible technicians working with our national teams. I can not blame people that try and further their income but we as a state did not provide the best coaches we could during that time period. Politics effect even our great sport of wrestling. Those probably wont ever admit it, but the truth is Kevin was the best we had to offer and ego's, money, or whatever caused our state not to benefit by it and that is all there is to it.
To arcbulldog -

You had some great "high school" stats, that will never be in question. But one too many of those great 4 timers ended up pumping gas at on of those quick trips. Unfortunately, nothing any of us did on a mat in high school pays the bills. All your uneducated statements do is give others reason to look down on your Ark City program. Sometimes it is much better to keep your ignorance to yourself.
"many will doubt what you say but they cannot deny what you do"
Gutwrench did one heck of a job getting this topic going! WOW! I commend u!
tksnkc:

Good points, but I can only remember 1 four timer from AC, Justin Ware.

Whatever happened to him?

Perhaps this thread should have been titled, "Kansas wrestlers can produce nationally, but not academically." What gut forgot to point out was that Bunch and Roberson were (I'm purely guessing here) great students and were not questionable as far as academics.

That would be a much more appropriate thread. It is my contention that we can compete athletically on the national level. We have difficulty in producing book smart kids. I'm not saying our kids are dumb in the least. They have to make do with what is offered at school. This much is true.

In the JuCo ranks, our kids attend because one of the three things are in question: 1) academic aptitude, 2) an injury that they have yet to prove they can overcome (ACL, etc) and 3) seriousness of the athlete's dedication.

I'm not saying that JuCo athletes don't fully get after it on the mat and in class, but there may be a shadow of doubt that is either proven or nullified after JuCo. Garden City had a JuCo wrestling program full of questionable cases. Many were there to get their grades up so they can get passed the ACT requirement. They were very successful because OU, OSU, etc., pushed them in that direction.

Granted, this is not to say that my analysis is every case. But to create a post that demonstrates we are not good on our feet in relation to other states is dishonest. I tend to believe there is a conglomeration of questions in regards to our athletes from DI programs.

Those that can beat all the doubts and are recruited by DI schools have the ball in their court and then Nigel's and my assertations come to play.

Granted, with the "hot commodity" athletes, there are ways around those questions. But Kansas doesn't have a "hot commodity" around and they are few and far between.

My point is that in athleticism, we're doing pretty darn good. In the classroom, we're average as a state. We have exceptional students, but we need more in the wrestling ranks to push Kansas to it's rightful place in DI recruitment.

I find it troublesome that an athlete will spend countless hours on the mat to perfect his skill, but won't spend an hour or two at night to make himself more marketable in college recruitment. This is not just a wrestling phenomena, but other sports as well.
Now I am confused.

Gibby,

I do not disagree with your points about academics but a few posts up you mentioned that success is defined as the number of state champions one produces. Didn't see anything in there about academically proficient athletes.

My point: In my opinion you can define success based on the number of champions one produces....it is a way. I think it is only one of many ways of defining success.

I submit that wrestling is one of the few, if not the only sport that teaches young athletes a lot of valuable lessons that can be applied in life as an adult. Examples: discipline, character, sportsmanship, work ethic, etc. I feel it is a disservice to the sport to narrowly focus success purely on number of championships. Wrestling is too great of a sport to limit the potential effects that it can have, coaches can have, etc. on influencing young athletes.

I have been out of high school now for over 20 years. I can tell you that the most influential people I had in my life were the myriad of coaches I had as a little kid in wrestling and more importantly my high school coach. I am so thankful that he took a broader perspective on defining success because the lessons I learned from him via wrestling have carried me through life a lot farther than just my success on the mat as a wrestler. He is the reason I coach today. My personal coaching goal is that I hope some day, some where one of the kids I have coached will look back and say that having me coach him helped him be a productive member of society and that we learned some valuable "life: lessons together.

My intent is not to criticize you or your beliefs. I respect those. My intent is to just offer a broader perspective.

Look forward to meeting you sometime.
Budke,

Sorry about the confusion. I made reference to state champs in an effort to squash Vikes' referring to IMAC and Maur Hill and then talking about Iowa and the school he is at currently. People selectively create "success" in their own terms, then identify how they were a success. Because they build their own parameters, they judge themselves as a success.

Success is a subjective idea. For one it's state champs, for others it's keeping a program alive. The question is what do we mean when we say success?

For Gutwrench, success as a state means D1 athletes. He contends that Kansas doesn't have D1 calliber athletes. I say bull.

Vikes believes success for him in Kansas was to keep alive a program, which by the way died once he left. I don't fault him, but the initial post dealt with D1 athletes. Since we are dealing with the initial post, he had no room to speak on the matter.

Then again, I've yet to create a D1 prospect, so maybe I don't either. I've met with some people that have and oddly enough, they believe the same thing I do. Then again, Kansas hasn't had all that many, so maybe we're washed up.

So what does it take?

1. National exposure. If you are just sitting at home March through July, you are not exposing yourself to coaches. Fargo is a meat market for talent and if you aren't producing there, most D1 coaches won't know who you are. This is their place to spot kids for their teams. Zach Allen comes to mind.

2. Intense dedication. I know of two kids in the Topeka area that have the dedication that coaches that level are looking for. This does not mean they will be offered or accept a D1 offer, it means they have the skills and work ethic.

3. Academic acalades. I'm probably speaking out of turn, but I'll use Brady Lamar who signed with Nebraska as an example. His work ethic is supurb, but ability (as of today) might be a little suspect. What Brady has is an excellent academic rating and the test scores to show it. I know he's a real wiz at math. So a coach might be willing to take a chance on him because there is the possibility of Brady making huge leaps and bounds in wrestling. If he doesn't, he's got academic scholarships that will pay the way. Cost to the program = $0. So they'll take a chance on him because if he doesn't pan out, it didn't hurt them financially.

This is not the case with football. I was fortunate enough to coach in a football staff that housed Rashaad Washington (NY Jets), Dante McCoy (Sullivan award finalist - I think that's what DII Hiesman equivalents win) and John Randle (KU's star running back and subsequently kicked off the team). The football budget has room for chances (100+ athletes). Wrestling does not.

I agree that wrestling has many more success stories out there that have nothing to do with wins/losses, but when you're interviewing for positions w/l are in important.
Gibby,

Thanks for the response. I agree with what you stated. Academics are definately very critical and play an important role in getting into D1 schools. There are also a lot of other factors, which have been discussed in this thread.

Did you see my post about getting a program in KS? Personally, I think that given the level of wrestling folks like you and others have produced in this state it is a shame that KS kids don't have an opportunity to wrestle D1 in KS. I think if that was offered KS would see a definate increase in the number of kids going to D1 programs.

I'm from MT and when I was in college, MT State and U of M cut their programs the year after U of M won the national championship (for their level). I had a lot of friends that hung up their shoes at the point. I also know a lot of folks that focused on other sports just so they could get an in-state scholarship even though they were scholarship level wrestlers.

Thank you for the professional dialogue.
Gutwrench,

Now that the kids from Kansas went outside the state to get more competition. Here are a few more numbers for you - after bashing the Kansas kids and coaches.

State Totals All three grades at Brute

Iowa - 345.0
Kansas - 773.5
Missouri - 703.5
Nebraska - 411.0
Gibby don't bash justin Ware he won 4times in high school won senior nationals and started for nebraska as a freshman got beat out of nationals and quit, what did you ever do lets here some stats on yourself stud.
oh and ark city had two 4timers Devin Bahm was the other.
oh and ark city had two 4timers Devin Bahm was the other.
oh and scotty goodale was a division 2 national champ chris hernandez went to OU, eddie borror went to OU, and many more just can't think of, but how can you say "high school" TKSNKC so that would get you off of ark city just being a good high school, and fellas don't be mad that most of you older guys have been beat by ark city guys okay peace out.
enough we all know Ark City's history, until you break varsity stay off here
If I'm not mistaken you were the one on here a Friday night while the Ark City varsity was in a 2 day tournament aways from home so wouldn't have had access to this forum or a computer for that matter, and you were postin away, JV stud if I do say so myself
I'm not badmouthing JV in anyway, I was JV my freshman year, but when you talk about how good everyone else is, maybe you should train so you become how good "I" can be, not how good everyone else is. Do more training and less talking and you're right in there and making some of your own history and I wish you the best.

Alex Ryan
Quote:
Originally posted by Wrestling Scholar:
In defense of VS Vike Coach, he had a tough situation at IMAC. I think his efforts their prolonged the inevitable.

No Kids program, no Junior high wrestling and probably no assistant coaches at a private school that losing it's attendance and was in a basketball town.

I know from personal experince in the early 90s they were having trouble finding a coach and I was told they might have folded then if they didn't get a coach.
What a bunch of garbage.

I believe we can all agree success breeds success. Not all students at Immaculata or Leavenworth are basketball players. The recent success of the football program at Leavenworth High School, a one year turn around by a new coach, proves my point. Fact is the lack of producing a winning program at Immaculata directly impacted participation by students who were not basketball players. Last I knew, part of the job of the high school coach is to promote the program in school and recruit in school athletes to participate and grow the program.

Sadly, the former coach was unsuccessful in his endeavors and the program was dropped.
The one thing I can't deny is the fact Imac had Good Sportsmanship across the board at every tournament I saw them at during my years in high school. They didn't have thugs or punks getting technicals for throwing headgear like some schools do, if they lost they were disappointed and left the mat shaking an opposing coach's hand and attently listening how to improve the next time around. Sadly there is no longer this program which leaves a sore spot amongst many of us.
AC, I never bashed Ware. I asked where he was. That's legitimate concern.

And maybe I got my history wrong, but I thought Ware wrestled at University of Nebraska at Omaha. Not Lincoln, there's a distinction there. Anyone care to clarify?

I also apologize for forgetting Bahm. His older brother, Dustin, and I are friends here in Topeka. I haven't seen Dustin in a while to keep up with little bro, where's he at nowadays?

As for poorly written posts by ACbulldog, I never get tired of it:

"Gibby(,) don't bash (J)ustin Ware. (H)e won (state) 4 ( ) times in high school(,) won senior nationals(,) and started for nebraska as a freshman. (He) got beat out of nationals and quit. (W)hat did you ever do(?) (L)ets here (spelled as "hear," but you can't really "hear" stats on the internet, you "read" them moron) some stats on yourself(,) stud."

Gibby stats:
Wrestled in high school.
Wrestled in college.
Graduated college.
Teacher of English.
Provides humor on forum.

And most important to you AC - would flunk you, without hesitation, if you ever came into my classroom. I have no qualms in failing an idiot.

Speaking of idiots, here's some interesting stats on AC alma mater/current school the state produced in regards to academics.

The following stats are available from 2004:

Reading
ACHS 16.9% vs. the entire state's 11.5% Unsatisfactory rating.

In Math (same year)
ACHS 29.5% vs. the entire state's 20.6% Unsatisfactory rating.

Science (same year)
ACHS 20.1% vs. entire state's 23.4% Unsatisfactory rating. Hey the state beat you on one! I'm sure there's a funny meth lab joke here somewhere, I just can't find the stats.

Social Studies (same year)
ACHS 17.9% vs. entire state's 15.5%
Unsatisfactory rating. History was never AC's strong point as he forgot Melvin Douglas the Olympian was a Topeka native.

Writing (same year)
ACHS 25.3% vs. enite state's 21.9%
Unsatisfactory rating. This one is odd because teachers grade their student's writing assessment. I know, I've graded them. Even the teachers at ACHS believe they are unsatisfactory in academics.

Oh, and new Gibby stat:
Able to use a computer to look up something other than web page posts. It took me all of five minutes.
Ware wrestled for the University of Nebraska!
Are we sure this isn't Bam Mangera's uncle?

AC:

"(O)h and (S)cotty (G)oodale was a division 2 national champ. (C)hris (H)ernandez went to OU, (E)ddie (B)orror went to OU, and many more (-) just can't think (if that isn't the understatement of the century. Oh and put a (.) there). (B)ut how can you say "high school" TKSNKC? (S)o that would get you off of (A)rk (C)ity just being a good high school. (A)nd fellas(,) don't be mad that most of you older guys have been beat by ark city guys(,) okay(?) (P)eace out.

What? "Don't be mad" and "Peace out"? One kid gets a Topac Shakur tape for the tape deck and now the whole town is "down."

Yeah, peace out, pimp.
Oh and thanks Richard.
How would I break into varsity was on varsity all 4 years alex Why don't you break into placing at state scrub,
Gibby, calm down there buddy. Retards don't bash other retards you have said that before.
And alex when did I ever say that I was in high school I've been out of high school back before you had pubes.
acbulldog-

I am sorry about the comment. I thought it was you, but perhaps it was someone else that had an acbulldog name. And I know I failed to place at State in my 2 trips to the State tournament. I may not be a "success" in others eyes, but accomplishing what I did in my 6 years of wrestling was an accomplishment to myself, I don't really care how others view me. Earning a State medal doesn't mean that much to me, I am proud of what I've accomplished and that's all I care about.
No it was me on awhile ago and you assumed I was in high school but I have been out for a couple of years.
Gibby come on now you just said it your a Teacher have fun with that 20,000 you make a year.
Man, it's a good thing they don't have state assessments in Economics. I have a feeling that AC would lead the pack in unsatisfactory marks there too.

You'r a little on the low side. Actually a lot.
Even behind me??
Quote:
Originally posted by RichardDSalyer:
What a bunch of garbage.

I believe we can all agree success breeds success. Not all students at Immaculata or Leavenworth are basketball players. The recent success of the football program at Leavenworth High School, a one year turn around by a new coach, proves my point. Fact is the lack of producing a winning program at Immaculata directly impacted participation by students who were not basketball players. Last I knew, part of the job of the high school coach is to promote the program in school and recruit in school athletes to participate and grow the program.

Sadly, the former coach was unsuccessful in his endeavors and the program was dropped. [/QB]
Richard, what you truly know about the wrestling programs at both Leavenworth are so sadly lacking, it not only defies belief, but only adds to your usual level of ignorance.

FIrst of all, yes, Leavenworth is a basketball town. Fortunately, the hard work of Dave Schmidt has created a competitive program at Leavenworth High. Unfortunately, the same history can't be said at Imac. After some tremendous years in the 1980s, the program fell on hard times and those have continued.

During my years there, we did attempt to start a middle school program, but despite some strong recruiting by myself and other staff in the school, we only ever managed to get two or three kids a year. And quite frankly, in a school Imac's size, with no tradition whatsoever, getting 15 kids a year out was pretty good. Unfortunatly, after the program really struggled during the 2002-03 season after I left, it was dropped last year.

Richard, I realize that your bashing of me despite your ignorance of the real situation only further proves my point -- if you don't agree with Richard, you are evil. Sort of like dealing with Fred Phelps, I suppose.

But despite you and Gibby's bashing of me goes, keep it up if you like. It doesn't really change anything, nor does it change my feelings as it what we accomplished in four years at Imac. I am proud of what we did and of the people that were part of those years and I miss them and think of them often.

And whatever way you try to spin it Richard, my comments about wrestling in Kansas have only been meant to show my respect for it and to voice my hopes to see it get better. That is a job of a coach, by the way. If I went too far with some of them, I apologize to my friends.

Richard, your passion for the sport of wrestling is admirable and I respect it a great deal. But your defensive attitude and your habit of speaking on topics of which you aren't fully briefed on makes you hard to take seriously -- well, that and bragging up getting people fired -- which I don't. Use you passion for good Richard.
Sorry -- to edit my fifth paragraph; don't want Gibby bashing my editing skills, too.

But as far as you and Gibby's bashing of me goes, keep it up if you like. It doesn't really change anything, nor does it change my feelings as to what we accomplished in four years at Imac. I am proud of what we did and of the people that were part of those years and I miss them and think of them often.
Imac was an average team at best when you were their. You lost to Pleasant Ridge with their 6-8 wrestlers every year. I really don't see what you are talking about, Lansing has a very good kids program that draws 40-50 kids from the whole Leavenworth area, Pleasant ridge has a kids program with 15-20 kids every year and so does Ft.Leavenworth, what do you mean no kids programs.The program was dropped because it was not competetive the kids didn't know much about how to wrestle
You're right bub --- we were average by the time I left, and far below it when I got there. My last year there we beat Pleasant Ridge and Perry-Lecompton in duals and tied Mill Valley (although by the tie-breaker criteria we have today we would have won). In addition, we finished in the upper division of every tournament we competed in that year, including finishing third at Wamego. We also competed in the KVL with the likes of Lansing, SFT, Basehor-Linwood and Tonganoxie.

My better kids did participate in the club at the Fort and two straight years we took around 10 kids to participate in the University of Northern Iowa' s team camp. We were in the process of getting a better feeder program going in 2002, when I foolishly decided to move on. After I left, that never materialized.

Were we world beaters by the end of the 2002 season? No, but we were better than we were when I got there. Could we have continued to get better with me there? I'd like to think so.

I have never said that we were of the Hoxie class, nor have I ever claimed to be Dan Gable or John Smith. I was just a guy with a wrestling background who was asked to make a bad situation better. I think I did that, and frankly I wish I had stayed around a couple of years longer; perhaps I'd have been able to shore up the foundation and keep the program afloat. Perhaps not, but I'm betting we could have done it.
Coach Holmes,

Had to step in here, just could not resist the temptation. Even though you guys were our arch-rivals and personally my teams at PR never lost to Imac I always championed yours, Coach Barba, Shea, Darnelly and Connells efforts to keep a program going at Imac. There should be one there today, no excuses.

It was my hope to combo with you guys during the lean times that were coming to keep both programs competitive, I am sorry we never got the chance to do so. Hansen and now Weber did and do a good, nice compettive job with the PR boys, but i think my kids were much better prepared to compete on a regional basis, mostly because i had most of them for a great deal of time through kids and middle school as well. They also were so **** ornery that the only way to settle em down was to work their butts off.

My brother and I started the Lansing kids club and that feeder is paying off immensely there for Coach Averill, it is nice to see those young men grow and how competitive they are as high schoolers. I am sure, had you stayed there would still be wrestling at Imac.

I know Gibby and like him, he now coaches my son in freestyle. I don't think there is any way to give him the perspective we had from a small school viewpoint, struggling for kids and doing the absolute best you could have done with what you had. You don't have to defend yourself, you did great with what you had. Glad to see you still in the game

Klint Deere
acbulldog-

If you are in fact out of high school then you need to get a life other than talking trash to high school kids about how good Ark City was "back in the day." Now, the reason everyone assumed you were in high school was because your posts have the overall intelligence and wit of an ego-driven freshman. So if in fact you are out of high school then I feel bad for you and your inability to mature since then.

So in other words, grow up.
Klint, old friend, it is nice to hear from you. It's good have an opinion from someone who was acutally there. And as I have said in other posts, if there was anything I had to do over again, I would have figured out a way for the permanent survival of the program at Imac. I still have hopes of its return, but that's probably down the road. I know I will be the first one in line cheering if it does.

Take care my friend, and stay in touch.
Quote

"What a bunch of garbage.

I believe we can all agree success breeds success. Not all students at Immaculata or Leavenworth are basketball players. The recent success of the football program at Leavenworth High School, a one year turn around by a new coach, proves my point. Fact is the lack of producing a winning program at Immaculata directly impacted participation by students who were not basketball players. Last I knew, part of the job of the high school coach is to promote the program in school and recruit in school athletes to participate and grow the program.

Sadly, the former coach was unsuccessful in his endeavors and the program was dropped."


Richard,

My quote of Leavenworth being a "basketball town" might have been a small exageration and was not meant to slight the success of other sports there, especially wrestling. It was more of a statment that the success of Leavenworth basketball overshadows other sports in that town. Kind of a problem the whole state can identify with.

I am always glad to tout the success of Leavenworth Wrestling. I believe last year there were 4 LHS grads wrestling at the college level and Leavenworth has been one of the more consistent teams in Kansas City for the last 30 years. No one works harder than coach Schmidt.

I think the success of one football season is not a good comparison. If the new LHS coach leaves after four years and Leavenworth goes back to the door mat in the sunflower league, are you going to call him unsuccessful.

I believe VS Vike Coach had a lot hurdles to overcome at Imac than a coach at Seaman would have to overcome. For example, and please correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not sure, but VS Vike coach wasn't a teacher at Imac, but was solely employed to do wrestling. Under these circumstances it's very difficult to "promote the program in school and to recruit kids".

Like I said earlier, Imac wrestling was in serious trouble before VS Vike coach arrived. There were teams with 4 or 5 kids on it. Give the guy a break.
Correct Scholar -- I was not a teacher at Imac. And thank you.
My thoughts:

I find many of the posts regarding IMAC as simply boorish, ill-mannered, and simply ignorant. I don't expect apology, for those who have made those statements are obviously more concerned about their own self-worth than those they demean.
I would also hope you would sign your name to your posts other than a simple acronym. Perhaps 'anon' would suffice? It's not witty...it's simple sarcasm. It's not discussion...it's base criticism.

You do have a right to state your opinion. I spent 20 years in the service protecting that right. I would hope however, that what you pass for candid observation isn't passed on to the very wrestlers who you instruct. Sarcasm, boorishness, and cynicism are traits best left to fools.

Coach Shea
Coach Shea:
Well said!

A big hello from Ned & Nathan Price in Atchison.

Ned
And another thing, please no more crap about McDonalds. That's getting personal and very offensive to many. There are a lot of good, intelligent, hard working people working at McDonalds. There are many people whose existence depends on that job and they probably take great pride in their work even though others might not view it as a noble profession. Plus, I cannot imagine a world without McDonalds which is what we would have if no one was there to ask us if we want fries with our Quarter Pounder and do we want to super size them. We need people that work at McDonalds. They are important components of our society.
And a big salute from up north your way Coach Shea!!! Oh, and of course, salutations to Ned and Krispy Kreams to Nathan!!!
VS Coach

Nathan says if we are coming back next he wants Fresh Krispy Kreme!!!

Ned
We'll see what we can do Ned...I might have some connections!
VS Coach:

I did not see you this past weekend at UNI-Dome.

What's UP?


I was so close but yet so far away.

Ned
Was going to come up, but wifey worked and Sage had stomach flu --- what fun!!!! Figured you'd be there and I blew it. Hope to see you soon!
VS Vikes

I think you are misreading criticism for bashing. Maybe it's because I'm holding you to the standards that I had set forth for myself and maybe my standards are too unrealistic. I've been at a school much larger than those you've attempted to turn around and also failed in my task. I guess that's what happens when you're in your early twenties, right out of college, and stars in your eyes. Now some people may say, "coach you were a success," but not in my eyes. I was fortunate to be at a place that had a gifted athlete who believed in me. Other wrestlers did improve, but not as rapidly as I would have liked.

My criticism was that I believed you are wrong in your assertation in the success at IMAC. Success is a purely subjective term. Your analogy of success is different than mine. I didn't intend to bash.

As for my editing prowess, I thought the Bulldog was a teen and was fooling with him. I had no idea that he had graduated from AC - oh my.

Note to self - send AC a PM about regretting what I said so he'll cross my name of in lipstick like that one guy from Billy Madison.

As far as the McJobs jabs - come on, those are funny. Do you really think people hang their hats in pride at being 30 and making drinks? Now the manager - he makes some jack. The others do not view this as a career. You don't see the cashiers being "long term employees."

When I was in college, I had the most glamourous job of all - septic tank installation and repair. Standing in a ditch filled with poop in August was all I needed for motivation. My backhoe operator use to joke with me and tell me I didn't have to go back to school - yeah right!
Gibby:

You're right; we probably do have different definitions of success.

Coach Shea rescued the program from the scrapheap in 1997 and by the time we joined forces a year later, success to us was not having everyone get pinned in a given night. We took kids with no background whatsoever and got them through the season alive. We had to set goals like not finishing last in tournaments or having more medalists than we did the year before.

At regionals in 1999, we did not have a wrestlers seeded higher than sixth; we got two guys to State and two others made the consolation semis. That was success for us. Overall, during the three years I was there after Coach Shea left, I felt as if we got better every year. Were we Ark City, Colby or Hoxie? Of course not, but we got better, we got people out and we had fun. For a program like Immaculata's that was success.

I would have loved to have had the numbers and success you had at Seaman. And I truly do think if I had stayed, we could have built something there. I will always regret going to Maur Hill and really wish I had stayed our last two years in Kansas at Imac.

As far as you bashing me -- no harm, no foul (at the sake of using a basketball term). And I'm a newspaper editor so self-editing is sort of habit. And also, you're right, you did have a CRAPPY job! LOL

But most importantly --- you want fries with that?

Take care Gibby!
... has this turned in to a lovefest?
Quote:
Originally posted by usawks1:
... has this turned in to a lovefest?
Not for me.

Of course we would expect Coach Shea to defend his former coaching colleague. The comments regarding the lack of success at Immaculata likely struck a sensitive nerve.

For an Iowa high school wrestling coach who had very little success coaching high school wrestling in Kansas to come on this board and participate in criticisms of Kansas wrestling is, to quote Coach Shea, "boorish, ill-mannered, and simply ignorant".
My thoughts:

You're right Mr. Salyer, I am sensitive to discussions of success, coaching, and questions of integrity or personal character - not only those directed to me, but to those directed at my friends, peers or institutions of which I am a part.

One thing that I would suggest to all who may participate on this post, is that disagreement is not always 'bashing'. Adults can disagree, both with merit in their argument, without resorting to demeaning comments or adolescent trash talk. For instance this forum is rife with talk of take down vs riding, Grand State value, State Dual discussion, etc. Great. Opinions are similar to flatulence...they all smell and sound different.

Too many instances occur when one who disagrees is automatically labled a blasphemer and sent to the post. I can agree or disagree, but with a simple caveat that my discussion should at least be cogent, informed and civil.

Success is relative. Some measure it in medals, trophies, and national placers. Others measure it incrementally in terms of wrestlers meeting their own goals and abilities. Was Manhattan High at the same level 15 years ago before Coach Woodford arrived? Was Norton the same prior to Coach Johnson? Pick the school. ALL HAD TO START a tradition at a distinct point in time. Some more recently, others decades ago. The point is that at some point in time a dedicated individual came along and said "I wish to help" and was able to motivate students to participate. That same individual could have simply sat on the bleachers and muttered and railed against what 'should be'.

The one element that has been neglected (in this deviation from the original string on this post) is that Coach Holmes served when no one else would ... and for those 15 wrestlers he coached he gave of himself and bettered them.

What happened after he left was simply out of his control. That analogy would have us blame all the head coaches of univeristies who no longer carry the sport due to Title IX for the loss of the program.

Isn't the essence of coaching to give of oneself in and effort to better another. Medals, trophies, placers, etc....are all elements that OTHERS use to qualify the coaching experience, most of whom have neither the skill or motivation to do so. Success for any wrestler is shaking hands with your opponent before the match...anything after that is superflous to the true nature of the sport. Some achieve greatness. Others, such as a young man at Manhattan who has CP, achieve success every nite at practice when they run the drills with their peers. He achieved greatness when he also won a match. It wasn't in front of thousands at a State Venue. It wasn't at a national tournament or tracked closely by fans such as Mr. Salyer. It was a JV match in front of his parents and other team mates. So which is the greater success?

There exists a poem about two great combatants who are bloddied and bowed in the ring or sand pit (whatever), but resonates with the truth and that AT LEAST THEY WERE IN THE RING.

So, dear reader, there exists a school in need of a wrestling coach...are you QUALIFIED and READY to VOLUNTEER?

Coach Shea
Dear Coach Shea:

I do agree with the vast majority of your statement.

Last year at a local high school tournament I mentioned to the high school administration the possibility of presenting an award to a wrestler from a rival school participating in the tournament. I volunteered to pay for the award, however the administration agreed with the idea and the high school provided the award. This individual never won a high school match and competed with a severe physical handicap.

I was very proud of this young champion when he was suprised with an award prior to the championship round. I was also very happy to remain anonymous in the background.

Certainly, and I am sure you will agree, it is not I who feels the need to defend my position, and I do not resort to name calling, or referring to another who disagrees as ignorant.

I site an example of a coach who took over a failing program at Wichita Southeast High School and has made dramatic improvements, to include state qualifiers and placers, and improved the participation rate at a "basketball school", all in the last four(?) years.

I site another example of a former Wichita Public High School wrestling coach who started a new program at a small private school in Wichita and this year, in the fourth(?) year of the program, celebrated the schools first state champion at the 3-2-1A tournament.

When the Iowa coach reaches the level of success of Coach Woodford, Coach Johnson, Coach Jackson, Coach Gonzales, and numerous others, then his statement of criticism will have some merit.

Until that day comes, this coach will continue to spend countless hours on this talk forum attempting to defend his record.
LTC Coach Shea: As always my old friend, thank you.

Richard as for you, you're wrong about one thing: I'm not going to "...spend countless hours on this forum..." defending myself from you. I'm done with that.

See, the part you don't seem to get is that when you dump on me, you're also dumping on the kids that wrestled for me. I know you'll argue that point, but that's what you are doing. And while it might make you feel better it's pretty cheap.

You weren't there Richard and you didn't go through what Coach Shea and myself and my staff of Eric Stark and Danny Wright went through trying to build that program. And you weren't there the final year when Mike Connel tried his best to keep things afloat.

You were 150 miles away in a 4A program that had nothing to do with Leavenworth, the Kaw Valley League, the 3-2-1A class or the Immaculata wrestling program. To me, that makes your views on myself and the Immaculata program meaningless and unimportant. Perhaps you view yourself as final judge and jury, but I certainly don't, and neither do a lot of other people.

So Richard, rant on. Bash me all you like. I'll simply ignore you from now on. I don't need to compare myself with others to judge my own sense of value or self-worth. If that makes you feel better, have at it.

I'll still check in with the Kansas Forum to check in with friends and from time to time I'll voice an opinion. But Richard, I'm done with you. You're simply not worth the trouble.
Granted some of us have gotten a bit off topic but I don't recall too many threads that have had 189 posts. That being said, what about the original topic. Are Kansas coaches spending enough time working from their feet? Are they teaching enough sound, high-percentage, technique in the neutral position?
Randy the only point some of us are trying to make is, if Kansas coaches aren't doing a good enough job teaching neutral skills then the rest of the country must be doing the same or worse. As most of the knowledgeable fans know these successes at a national level aren't a one year occurance.
I guess my position is that the takedown is the key to winning wrestling matches. More precisely, the first takedown is critical.

We had a thread a few months ago about statistics and percentage of victories where the first takedown is scored. And the figure is somewhere around 85%. That is if you score the first takedown you will win 85% of your matches.

I consider myself a fairly knowledgeable fan and we (Kansas) have had some limited success at the National level. But why are those wrestlers successful? Obviously some coaches and some athletes do a good job on their feet. I have seen a few matches and my opinion is those that are successful at Southern Plains, U.S. Nationals, World Team Trials, etc. have been extremely sound on their feet.

I would love to see Kansas elevate its wrestling skills. Yes, we are knocking on the door but in order to step or barge through it, we need to elevate our wrestling.

Although there are a few exceptions, most all of our successful wrestlers compete in summer freestyle and Greco. Clearly the emphasis in those styles is on neutral skills. Many of our wrestlers are learning some technique from the likes of Coach Klemm, Coach Johnson, Coach Garcia, Coach Peterman, Coach Vest, Coach Riech, Coach Fergola, etc. And they are also learning from recent grads like Bunch, Spalding, Hermreck, Blanding, Metzler, Gable, etc. Is the Kansas coaching fraternity willing to learn?

A couple of years ago, I tried to get a Silver level clinic in Kansas. But due to a lack of interest it was dropped. Now we have an opportunity to attend a Coaches Clinic organized by Bob Gonzales and Bob Phillips. Are Kansas’s coaches going to take advantage of this fantastic opportunity? Are Kansas’s coaches going to elevate their knowledge level? The clinic will be about freestyle and Greco … that also helps with folkstyle.

I don’t agree with Guts method for motivating Kansas’s coaches but I find some credence in his message. Maybe its’ preaching to the choir. Most of the coaches that read our message board are teaching sound technique and emphasizing the same.

One of my concerns is coach’s education. I hope the Kansas coaches take advantage of the opportunity to further their education.
LancerM how are you gonna say that I talk about How Ark City used to be good as I recall they got second this year with a so so team what did your team get. and the year before is the only one I can think of they haven't placed in the top 4 so you can talk all the trash you want to, but I would like to know who you are and if your even any good.
Coach Hinderliter,

Well, you're much more eloquent and diplomatic than me. I understand why one wouldn't agree with my tactics but I think we share the same beliefs and a common objective. Through the years, I've thoroughly enjoyed reading your reports from nationals and appreciate your contribution to KS wrestling. You seen a lot of KS wrestling and I think you know what the challenges are. You seen a lot of great KS coaches and wrestlers for sure, but you also see where we fall short. Thanks for weighing in on this topic.
Quote:
Originally posted by usawks1:
I guess my position is that the takedown is the key to winning wrestling matches. More precisely, the first takedown is critical
No one on this thread, to my knowledge, has disputed the importance of wrestling in the neutral position.

Quote:
Originally posted by usawks1:
Coach Johnson, Coach Garcia, Coach Peterman, Coach Vest, Coach Riech, Coach Fergola, etc. And they are also learning from recent grads like Bunch, Spalding, Hermreck, Blanding, Metzler, Gable, etc. Is the Kansas coaching fraternity willing to learn?
If these great coaches aren't in the "coaching fraternity" who is? When gutwrench insults "Kansas coaches" these fine coaches are included because they are Kansas coaches. I think this is where most of the outrage toward gutwrench stems from.

Is every coach in Kansas great, probably not. Is every coach in Oklahoma, Missouri, Iowa, Pennsylvania, or New Jersey exceptional, probably not. Are most doing the best they can, probably the vast majority of them. And as our recent successes as a state continue to pile up, it looks like there are a lot of reasons to believe we are doing better than most. Do we have room to improve, of course. Are most of us working to improve, of course. But when gutwrench insults an entire group of men who selflessly give of themselves, it understandably creates a backlash.

Gutwrench, if you have so much wisdom to share, do it. I for one would love to be at that clinic and gain any knowledge a hall of famer like yourself could share, that is if you are a hall of famer. Until you are an active participant you will not see the change you want to see.
Sorry about the "lovefest" Randy, it did get kind of sappy for a second. Almost wanted to hug someone - something I tell my kids if I catch them doing after a match, I'll punch them in the face. I hate hugs after a match.

The problem is gut, you're firing up the wrong people. Those of us that are dedicated to the sport and know how to use the internet already do what you are harping is lacking in KS. So you're preaching to the choir.

You couldn't tell it through my posts, but I've become much more sedated in my approaches to coaching. It use to be that I would just scream, "who taught you that? Were they retarded?," but now I know to be nice. I have a couple of kids coming from schools that have coaches that have no business being in charge of a wrestling team. I have to ease up and say, "that's not bad, try this to make it better." If I were to do like I use to do, I'm pretty sure I'd have a couple of coaches in the room wanting a piece of me. Rest assured, I'm positive I can beat the snot out of them, but what's the point?

Such is the attitude of your posts. Berating those on your side is silly. The one's you're after pay no attention. It's like going to the Vatican with a sign that says "Premarital sex = bad." The cardinals will look at you and say, "no joke."

Want to "save" someone? Look to AC. I'm bored with constantly correcting his posts. AC wrestling is good, their academic acalades are not, and he wants to know your name (though he has yet to reveal his own).
I would like to offer a few observations and thoughts on this topic. This year I have seen more Kansas wrestlers tying up in the neutral position than in the past, I believe too much. I do accept the fact that we need to have our wrestlers work more on setting up shots on their feet. Do not take this wrong but the best I have seen at this, this year is little Trent Cox. I used to box and noticed that Trents’ foot work at one tournament was more like a boxer than a wrestler, he was setting up shots beautifully and was being very effective.

Now don't get this wrong, but Trent is not the fastest wrestler in the world, but if you ever want to see a technically brilliant wrestler, watch this soon to be 9th grader work. He does as good a job of setting up his shots as anyone I have seen wrestle this year, including high school wrestlers. I spoke to his dad, who also used to box, and asked him if Trent had been working boxing foot drills, and he affirmed to me that he had. There is benefit to cross training.

Now to riding time; I have had my son work on two specific rides, wrestlers wrestling him will have to figure out those rides. I have him working on two specific styles though to have him perfect, as much as possible, those two styles and then to be alternate between styles depending on the wrestler he is wrestling. I also have him working rides to work to a pinning combination, but in close situations at the end of periods, I have him working on riding to end the period, especially in close matches if he has the lead.

Now as to one of the weaknesses, I have observed this year more than anything else that I haven't noticed comment on; Hand Control. I think that some of us as coaches are getting a little lazy, on all levels in drill situations. I don't think any of us can stress the importance of drilling appropriately enough. We drill takedowns but don't complete the take down in the drill, we drill all types of situations but don't stress the importance of things like good referees positions, good stance, hand position, etc. I have noticed this especially with hand control. Now these are obviously generalizations and there are many who do stress each of these areas in a practice situation and work on developing complete wrestlers. These are just my observations that I have noticed many wrestlers getting beat with, not clearing the hand on a stand up, getting hand control while on the bottom, etc.

On a last note, I have had conversations with many at high school meets this year and even at the state meet where our wrestlers (all ages of Kansas wrestlers) are tying up more than they need to. I have noticed this to be true especially when observing wrestlers from other states wrestle. There is definitely a time to tie up but there are times not to. Frankly, I love it when a kid ties up with my son, especially if he is not as strong. At that point, I like to have Nathan show that wrestler the benefit of summer Greco Wrestling.
Three cheers for Brother Mike! I agree with a lot of what you’ve said. (Kinda scary isn’t it)

Who ever said, that "practice makes perfect" was absolutely wrong. Only perfect practice makes perfect! Too often coaches allow kids to get away with less than perfect technique. Can anything less than perfect win matches? Yes but will being less than perfect win matches against quality wrestlers? I seriously doubt this.

I believe there is a difference between drilling setups and drilling takedowns. I am a firm believer in positioning. Too often I see our wrestlers work to get their opponent into a position where they can attack ... only to be out of position themselves and not ready to penetrate. I think there’s a quote about opportunity and preparation equals luck but I don’t recall it exactly.

In wrestling, how important are our hands? The answer … they are critically important. I think a lack of hand control for the bottom wrestler is the single biggest flaw I see in wrestling. But how about controlling the hands in the neutral position? I don’t think many coaches teach “hand-control” while a wrestler is on his feet. Most wrestlers find it very difficult to wrestle without their hands! Thus is another area I think we "generally" don't preach enough and that is "hand fighting."
Gibby Gibby, this isn't a academic site is it you f** but I would like to know your weight and to see if you would be attending any tourny's this summer, write back we maybe able to work something out.
You're annoying. Tell us who you are or go away because, as is, you're just gutwrench1 without anything particularly intelligent to say or add to these forums.
Quote:
Originally posted by LancerM:
You're annoying. Tell us who you are or go away because, as is, you're just gutwrench1 without anything particularly intelligent to say or add to these forums.
Another poster joining the fight for the reveal of the Gutlesswrenches identity, unil then he's another guy behind a computer
Actually I'd rather just know who acbulldog is because he bothers me a lot more than gutwrench1.
AC pointed out:

"Gibby (,) Gibby, this isn't a academic site(,) is it you f**(? - and why the use of those words filtered? Plus, don't start a sentence with the word "but". It's basic grammar - obviously not taught in AC.) I would like to know your weight and to see if you would be attending any tourn(ies) this summer. (W)rite back(,) we may (two words, not one) be able to work something out. "

Obviously AC not only flunked English, but science as well. You do know that the "summer" you are referring to is actually spring. Most freestyle/greco tournies are finished before Memorial Day. What is it that we need to "work out?" I tend to avoid idiots about as much as I do NASCAR fans.

(Yawn)

Oh, by the way, nice Dickson post in the Kids section. Way to keep the rest of the state trembling in their boots.

You bore me.
HEY GIBBY ... watch what you say about NASCAR fans!
... man, you are leaving no stone unturned! I might suggest that some stones are pretty heavy when they're on your head!!!!
Quote:
Originally posted by Gibby:
AC pointed out:

"Gibby (,) Gibby, this isn't a academic site(,) is it you f**"
I'm guessing it is a bad sign when someone does not spell profanity correctly by putting in the right number of asterisks.
I thought that too but then I figured actually it was an offensive term suggesting Gibby's sexual preference!

But it is still a bad sign!!
Coaches meeting before Brute Nationals the director announced good news about Title IX. Good for the men, not to hurt the women, see so & so. I never caught up with so & so. What's the word ?
Okay, I'm a closet NASCAR fan, so chill out. My wife rolls her eyes when it's on and asks if anyone has crashed.
An admission does cleanse the soul! I fear though, your admission will do nothing to ease the tensions with acbulldog!
Gibby you still haven't said what weight or if you wrestle any of the "spring" tourny's coming up, heck even if your a fat boy I would still love to meet up with you, now go ahead and correct me now.
Oh what the heck AC, I'll endulge. I weigh 180. For farts and giggles, I'll wrestle you in a Greco match, I'm too old to bend over for freestyle. Actually, I'm too lazy.

This should be fun. And to keep up with tradition, AC states:

"Gibby you still haven't said what weight or if you wrestle any of the "spring" tourn(ies) coming up(.) (H)eck(,) even if you(')r(e) a fat boy(,) I would still love to meet up with you(.) (N)ow go ahead and correct me now."

Um, AC? Before you call me out to correct what I guess you thought was correct, have someone else look over your post. I see more errors.

Tell you what AC, I'll make a wager. You and me at some tourney. More than likely you'll kick my butt because I'm old, slow, and will be too busy laughing at myself in a singlet.

Barley pops to the winner at the local beverage counter.
I put my money on Gibby. Anyone want to give out some odds.
Thar ain't nothin wrong with NASCAR....Git'R Done!!
Let's get an identity from AC, and then Vegas can put odds on it.
Wow....Are you guys 10? Seriously I see my 10 year old sister say some of the things you've said.

And I'm sure Ark City isn't the smartest high school in the state but I'm also pretty sure it's not close to the dumbest.
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