Where would you like to see the State Tournament
Booooooooooo. What happened to all the fun?! Pob, why did you have to go all Patriot Act on us??? Come on, it's the offseason!
No matter how many posts you delete, you can never change my true feelings: I still say CandyLand would be the best place for the state tournament.
I think if we continue to have the state tournament during the winter months, we ought to move the tournament to Florida or better yet Hawaii. CandyLand would be dumb nobody would make weight the 2nd day.
How about having 3-2-1A and 4a at the same venue and 5a and 6a at another place?
How about you 4-5-6a guys don't worry about 3-1A? Not that we don't like you guys but we like the atmosphere of one tournament just for our class.
Don't worry, fanatic. Those of us from the Big City (i.e. not 4A) really don't want to meddle with you guys that much. You stay where you are, we'll stay where we are, then we can complain about how our class is totally way harder.
I don't care how they combine the tournaments, as long as it isn't in wichita
Nigel, Nigel, Nigel,
It's way too early in the year for you to start causing trouble on here. Boy was it nice when your ISP was disconnected! If I find the person responsible for loaning you the money to get hooked back up, we are going to go round and round. Remember, the season is long there is plenty of time for any newbies to learn to detest you and your arrogant attitude.
leave nigel alone, lest your glass house come tumbling down.
My Isp wasn't disconnected. I just moved home from college and I was really busy so I didn't have time to come on the site, but now I do. Although the topics right now aren't that great. And arrogant I am not. I am confident in most things I do. I certainly don't cause trouble, its not my fault that I say the truth and people can't handle it. Obviously if Bob or Coach JT thought I was saying something I shouldn't be they would be deleting my posts. But as I always say, at least I post with my real name instead of hiding behind a nickname
Nigel:
I was just wondering — with 32 responses at this point — what you thought of the current polling that appears to show that 62 percent of the respondents want the tournament out of Wichita?
And my other question — directed to the those who answered "other site" — is where you would go besides Wichita or Topeka (discounting the done-to-death CandyLand references)? Hays' sacred standing in the 3-2-1A is safe and will remain untouched, but what about the other three classes? If not the Expocenter, where?
Well,
frankly I am surprised that the number is not higher then it is, but 32 votes is not really that many. Its obvious to me that at least half of the people don't want it there, and honestly there were a few votes by people who just don't like my opinions so they voted just to annoy me but I don't care. Unfortunatly as someone else mentioned there really isn't any other alternatives for the state tournament in kansas. You have the Expocenter in Topeka, The hays located wouldn't fit all the classes. And im not sure anyone would want the tournament in Salina althought the Bi center is ok. I don't expect the tournament to be moved but it would be interesting to see what another location would be like.
Isn't it funny that things always seem to be so "obvious" to Nigel! If the rest of us only had so much vision. Ah to be so important that people changed their opinions (votes) simply because of what I said or didn't say.
ok when it comes to depth in the rooms 5a and 6 a are aheaed of the competition...but the regionals are a joke for 5a and 6acase in point I went to the Emporia regional in 2002 to watch and in the heavyweight bracket ther were 5 guys...the pathetic thing is it was bracketed as a normal bracket the #1 seed had a bye and then a match with the winner of the 4 vs 5 seed in the 2nd with 2 & 3 receiving byes into the semis...#1 could have not even won a match and still qualified for state!!! What is just as bad is "some" coaches ( now this is in all classes before I totally get jumped by the coaches from aroudn the state)have guys they could put in to fill the void but choose not to because they don't think it would be worth to a high profile tournament...I can understand giving a guy competiton that they have an opportunity to be succesful against such as taking nobody to the normal varsity tournament at a certain weight and sending them to a jv tournament instead to improve on thier skill for example but come regionals fill your roster if you got em! As for the bracketing situation for the regionals if a small enough # of competitors I personally think a round robin should be done so you'd have to earn your way to state at the regional.I also think that there should be like D1 college a certain amount of wildcards total per regional like 5 total that way anyweight and number of competitiors can make it if they have a weight stacked at a regional and a guy takes 5th he could end up with a wild card to state based off of regular season accolades or something along those lines.
I don't think this poll really holds much credibility (and for the record, the Colliseum is still winning). It's a fine idea, but it's only 33 people, not everyone in the entire state.
To me, the Kansas Colliseum just makes more sense than anywhere else. Wichita has more hotels than any other location in the state, it's in a central location, the building itself can withstand the crowds (no matter what you personallly think about Elite Security, the building can deal with all the people/parking/etc), and please correct me if I'm wrong, but Wichita probably has more high schools in 4/5/6A in the surrounding area than any other major location. This not only saves money for those schools, but also the schools out in the Flatlands (Western KS) who would have to travel all the way to Topeka (an extra 2 1/2 hours). Remember that all schools are losing money right now, but especially the teeny ones way out west.
If you can make an argument that tops that (other than "The mats are cold"), then by all means, do so. Otherwise, I say leave it in Wichita.
It's one weekend out of the year, and as far as I'm concerned, it's still a pretty fun weekend. So relax, and quit yapping.
A 2 1/2 hour bus ride is a pretty easy gig for most flatlanders.
Personally, I would like to see the tournamnet moved out to Hays so I can order some Taco Shop to the hotel room.
Our favorite at Hays was to order from that pizza place (can't remember the name of it) on Thursday night that had the great sandwiches and stuff. And, of course, Carlos O'Kelly's after Friday night weigh-ins!
FYI
The KWCA asked all KS high school head coaches to respond to a poll about their preference for state tournament location, the KSHSAA asked for this information.
We offered four options on the survey and awarded points for how each coach ranked each option. The options involved variations of alternate locations, dividing up the class groupings differently (6A and 5A together, 4A and 3-1A togeter, etc.), and even hosting each class individually in a host high school gym.
Interestingly enough, the total points were very even (one option had about 118 points, another had about 112, another 109, something like that, but they were too close to differentiate between them). As much moaning as we have heard from coaches, fans, etc., about the Kansas Coliseum in Wichita, the coaches seemed evenly divided on how and where we hold state. The only option not receiving much support was the host high school choice.
Since this topic was being discussed, just thought all would be interested in the poll results.
I also know the Topeka Expocenter was looked at as an option for the 4-5-6A venue, but not sure why the Kansas Coliseum won out??
OK, I got it...
KSHSAA figures out the exact geographic center of the 6-5-4A wrestling schools, gets that town to build an 18,000-seat arena and add about 5,000 hotel rooms and several new resturants. Problem solved.
Yeah, I know, but it makes more sense as CandyLand.
Prant I don't lnow how you figure Wichita is winning. 60 percent of the people want it in Topeka or anyplace other than Wichita. I think anyplace other than Wichita would include Topeka.
I have to think a college fieldhouse like K-state would provide a much better atmosphere. I know Manhattan doesn't have the motel rooms for 3 classes but I think the atmosphere would be better. When I was in Wichita I didn't like the concrete drab atmosphere, and in that regard Topeka isn't any better.
There are lots of hotels in Hawaii
And lots better atmosphere than Manhattan
My anywhere else vote wouldn't include topeka. I'd rather go to Iraq than Topeka. In fact, I believe the guys who run the Expocenter, got their management techniques in Iraq.
You must excuse Prant, his addition skills must have faded. In any case we all know that the state tournament won't be moving anytime in the near future. The whole point of this post and several others that have covered this topic is that we want people's opinions. The opinion seems to be that wichita hasn't really been the greatest place to be. The only reason why I made a case for the expocenter was becuase it has the highest occupancy of every other option. And the kids tournament runs great there and they far more kids than the High school tournament does.
jasper not funny with the Iraq comment considering a former Kansas wrestler was a P.O.W. over there....but back to the topic at hand....
I think every one should have there own state tourny and on different weekends so we can travel to see them....
321 @ Hays Since it works for them
4 @ Salina
5 @ Wichita
6 @ KSU
I think if you look for the most part those would be the central location for 4, 5, and 6 for the most part...though splitting it up would be bad for the sport. Oklahoma has a 1day State Tourny I believe...and only 2 regionals per classification...they also have a gay rule that if you place higher than the 4th place guy you can challenge down for his spot to have a tougher match 1st off at stateand only top 4 place at State...if we had the super regionals I would want to to see the 8 man bracket at state have say4a and 6a on Friday and 5a and 3a(still in Hays) on Saturday...just a thought
I agree with Aaron's suggestion of Salina for the 4a site. There should be plenty of rooms for 4a fans and it would open up several other possibilities for the 5/6a guys as a smaller facility/motel situation would work for them without the additional crowd attached to 4a.
some would point out that much of the Wichita Coliseum crowd comes because they can see more than one tournament at the same location but when you look at the success that 321a has had at Hays it seems possible that 4a alone would probably generate quite a crowd.
Another possible option in a few years, if it ever gets built, is the new "coliseum" in Olathe that is scheduled to hold 8,000 (this would be slightly smaller than the Wichita Coliseum and slightly larger than Salina Bicentennial Center)...There is also talk about a possible "coliseum" near the Kansas Speedway in western KCK...
Also, why is it that Allen Field House is never mentioned as a possible site, and Bramlage Coliseum is seldom mentioned??? I know KU and KSU both dumped wrestling over the years, and people are bitter about it, but you know, sometimes you have to "nut up" and approach the schools (I don't know if the KWCA or KSHSAA has ever done this---if they have and were previously turned down, I hope each keeps approaching them)...They are the two biggest arenas in the state, yet they are not utilized...
Originally posted by fanatic:
Prant I don't lnow how you figure Wichita is winning. 60 percent of the people want it in Topeka or anyplace other than Wichita. I think anyplace other than Wichita would include Topeka.
Yes, but as far as the actual poll, the Colliseum is winning 39%-31%-31%. Just like the presidential elections of years past- you don't have to have a majority to win. (Ross Perot factor in '92, Clinton in '96, G-Dubs '00). I'm just using the system our great nation does.
And yes, Bramlage would be sweet.
And since we're all against CandyLand, what about having the tournament at Cabaret USA in Topeka? I would definitely ditch Wichita for that.
GorillaHawk:
A couple of years ago, I floated the idea (and Fanatic, don't start) of moving the whole tournament to Manhattan, putting the 6As and 5As in Bramlege and 4As and 3-2-1As in Ahearn. Then move ALL of the medal matches to one arena on Saturday along with the finals. Probably won't happen, since we can't tinker with Hays, but it would be pretty cool.
As for Allen Fieldhouse, forget it. I think Truman was president the last time there was a mat in that building. There's a better chance of having the State tournament at Kemper Arena or Saint Francis High School than in the cathedrial of basketball.
Why would I start, you already admitted it was not going to happen. Oh and I agree it is a (cool) NOT TOO HOT of an idea.
Thanks for not disappointing me. Got to admit, it's still better than Hawaii or CandyLand!
A potential conflict with both Allen Field House in Lawrence and Bramlage in Manhattan is the Big 12 basketball season. Rarely, if ever, will either schools regular season be completed by the time of the State Wrestling Tournament.
While both have more seating than the Coliseum, I do not believe either have the necessary floor space to accommodate nine (9) wrestling mats, the scoreboards, and the tables!
Again, I will state as I have in the past, it is easy for all of you to complain, however have any of you volunteered to be a part of the solution? It is the individual school administrators in the metropolitan Wichita area, (Andover, Augusta, Chaparral, Circle, Derby, El Dorado, Goddard, Haysville, Mulvane, Rose Hill, Valley Center, Wichita, and many others) which provide the leadership and round up the volunteers, who perform the grunt work which enable the tournament run at all.
I do not remember seeing any of you last year when I was assisting in the rolling up of mats and performing other necessary grunt work to prepare for the finals.
Lastly, when Salina gets a 4A high school which is willing to step and handle the duties associated with the tournament, then we can consider the Bi-Centennial Center.
It is also certainly easy for Nigel to once again complain about the site, when he did not attend the tournament last year.
Any of you willing to step up, and provide the necessary leadership to be solution providers, feel free to contact me and I will provide you with the name of the appropriate contact person.
Mr. Salyer:
There are no arguments that the area schools who staff Wichita work hard — we all know that and appriciate it.
But there are a couple of points you should understand.
First, due to places like Concordia, Abiline and Concordia, Salina would be have plenty of 4A schools to staff the Bicentenial Center, if that subject ever came up.
And as for using facilities at KU or K-State during the Big 12 basketball season, keep in mind that the Missouri tournament is held in the Hearnes Center and the Nebraska tourney is held during the Devaney Center, during the Big 12 season. And, Iowa State has put a bid in to get the Iowa tournament at Hilton.
It's merely a matter of asking the Big 12 to schedule around the three days needed.
Another point to consider in a college town hosted one-site state tournament: college basketball games are typically played on Wednesday and Saturday nights and SUNDAY afternoons.
I am a died-in-the-wool Hays 3-2-1A kind of guy -- but the idea of having a combined state tournament in Manhattan, Bramledge/Ahearm in an exciting thought. It won't happen, I know, but it is fun to think about.
I think the biggest thing to keep in mind about Wichita is not the building itself or the volunteers. The building is adequate for the event and the workers are tireless. It's more the attitude of the local officials.
After KSHSAA went to the city with some concerns, the city came back and basically said "Well, you don't have anyother options so here's our deal, take it or leave it."
And they were right, KSHSAA had (at least for next year) no other options, so it's back to Wichita in 2004. But if the Expocenter is available for the 2005 tournament, expect Topeka to bid on it and if Wichita doesn't change its tune, they will probably lose it.
THe State Tournament as it is in Wichita gets a lot of help from mostly Augusta and Andover people...other thatn that it's Butler County Community college helping out!!! As for the Salina proposal...4A would pull alot of help from Abilene, Concordia(which was mentioned twice by Tkdwn), as well as chapman, and Clay center. I'm sure if it were closer the 4a teams rom the NWKL like Goodland would feel more inclined to help out as well...furthermore even though the top 6 place...I think that the state tournament should take the top 4 guys at each weight (give them like 3lbs for thenext week and have a preset pairing like they do for regional 1st vs another regional 4th and have all 4 classes go at it Grand State style.
To Tkdwn42:
I readily admit the staff at the Coliseum, from the ticket handlers to the security guards, should have a more customer friendly disposition.
I too have complained to the Coliseum Director regarding the staff, and have been told the staff for this event are sub-contractors.
The "city" I believe you are referring is the City of Wichita which has no control over the Coliseum as the facility is owned by Sedgwick County. The County Commissioners have unfortunately had a deaf ear.
There also is no question that cooperative efforts by officials from Shawnee County and the City of Topeka enable the Expocenter to bid on certain events which are partially underwritten by the local governments. The City of Wichita will not assist with any funding as the Coliseum is located in the County. Difficult to convince the City of Wichita officials that not all visitors to the event will stay at hotels and frequent restaurants only in the county and that the Wichita Convention and Visitors Bureau should participate as they are the recipient of certain hotel room taxes from the event.
You're right, I did mean the county, but the sentiments are the same.
I have no objection whatsoever to the tournament remaining in Wichita, but if it is, then county needs to actually work with KSHSAA and the KWCA to figure out better way. Charging for the hospitality room sort of defines the whole thing: "We'll be hospitable, but it will cost you!"
Perhaps losing the tournament for a while to Topeka will make Wichita and Sedgwick County wake up. But when they come back to KSHSAA and say "take it or leave it," they really don't do a lot to help their case.
To be honest i dont really see what difference it makes were the tournoment is held. We as the wrestlers dont work hard and cut weight and stay awake at night thinking about the kansas colosium, we are thinking about the state WRESLING tournoment. the atmosphere will always be good. Because it will always be about wresling. So were ever it ends up is fine with me. But here are my Thoughts on it. When i think about wresling i always think about the kansas expocenter. That building was were i went when i was a kid. the whole open rafter concrete drab of the colosuim riminds me of the book"1984". ive never wrestled there, but i get the idea that it would be hard to get up for a match. I also think it would be cool to have the 4a state wresling tournoment away from the 5a/6a tournoment. But it seems like as many 4a teams as there are close to witchita that it needs to stay there. So how bout the 4a tournoment in century 2? for all of you who remember the witchita classic when it used to be there, im sure you can agree that having the state tournoment there would be alot better than the collosuim. and there is room for the 4a tournoment there. and it would also make it easier to agru over witch class is " by far the toughest" witch i think would ad alot of fun to this site
I think Christian D. Orr of the Salina Journal stated the thoughts of having the State tournament elsewhere such as Salin pretty well at the following link:
http://www.saljournal.com/stories/020703/prep_orr.html
A great article and a very inviting offer--- SALINA IS HERE WITH OPEN ARMS. As a 4a separate tourney fan, I would welcome salina's open arms to wichita's closed fist any day of the century. After speaking with Randy beech of KSHAA, It would appear that the idea will have to be pumped into them by an overwhelming vote of coaches, as for some reason that is totally strange to me, they seem to be really reluctant to let 4a secede from the union. I would really like to see it, though.
There is no Randy Beech who works for the KSHSAA; do you mean Rick Bowden?
As has been stated numerous times before, if one of the three classes breaks away from the others, that tournament will not be held in an arena, it will be held at a school. I'm sure the reason KSHAA is reluctant to discuss it is because they know the numbers don't add up for allowing one class to go to an arena. For those of you old enough to remember when holding a one class state tournament at a school was the norm, it was terrible. I was at, what I believe, was the last year this was done in Abilene and the experience caused me to come home and write a letter of protest to the KSHAA. While schools have more gyms today than then, none that I am aware of could do it without using more than one gym which would deny the fans the opportunity to view all the wrestling from one location, if at all. The finals would in my opinion still be over crowded and dangerous for the fans if they are moved back to a school. You can cuss and discuss KSHAA all you want but sometimes there are reasons for their madness.
You appear pretty certain where one class tournament may or may not be held. Since no decision has been made to do it, it certainly has not been determined that it would have to be at a school and not an arena.
Hays is very succesful with one tournament for lots of reasons but right at the top of the list is because the public turnout for the event is simply overwhelming. Frankly, I think 4A could do the same thing quite easily. As for the ability to do it a high school, I have little doubt that a facility like Basehor-Linwood could easily host a 4A state tournament. Not that it would be a top contender because of the extreme location.
I also believe that Basehor-Linwood could host a state tournament, only because Joe Keeler and Scott Neil run a class operation and because both would work their butts off to make sure it would...However, the problem with Basehor-Linwood (and most high schools for that matter) is size of the gym...BLHS seats 2,800 which is really a tad small when it comes to their Bobcat Classic...So could you imagine what it would be like for state???
I think GorillaHawk hit the biggest problem of the high school hosting state dilema...and that would be seating....at regionals 4A schools have to host 2 day tournaments anywaysome just have to utilize an extra gym which would screw you out of the true team atmosphere You also get into a whole different level of security...for those of us that have been to a Kids tournament in a high school setting for the most part know it is pure chaos no matter how well it is ran due in part to crazed parents trying to live vicariously through their children, and carrying on like blubbering idiots when a call doesn't go their way or their kid loses and they cuss out their children saying "QUIT YOUR !#%* crying ...multiply that by a few extra years to get crazed parents of teenagers in a security scarce tournament ...and I reply NO THANKS!...Keep it in a stadium like the collesium...the expocenter or at a 4 year college that is able to hold the tournament of the State Championship calliber.
My apologies for confusing the name of the KSHAA official------yes, it was Rick Bowden that I spoke to. I think that 4a could sustain itself at a separate venue, and I believe that Salina would have a lot to offer. The biggest problem that KSHAA has, I believe, is that without the 1/3 of the crowd that 4a brings into the colisseum, possibly the cost of the facility is not feasible. It may well be that 4a is locked to 5a-6a due to the crowd support factor. Getting out of the Christians and lions atmosphere of the colisseum would really be great but not likely to happen. 321 is very wise to hold onto their hays deal,as it is a very pleasant environment that makes the participant feel appreciated.
One of the things that I wish everyone could understand is the fact that KSHSAA really doesn't have a hidden agenda in this matter. Sure, because of the crappy way the management at Wichita has treated fans and wrestlers over the years, they would just as soon move out of there. And, there have been enough complaints over the years to put the wirting on the wall.
But KSHSAA is about accomidating what the coaches in and member schools. Why do all of the classes in basketball have their own sites for the state tournament? Because that's what they wanted. Why has Hays become the private playground of the 3-2-1As? Because that's what they wanted.
If the 4A coaches and administrators in the state voted unamously to move the state wrestling tournament to Goodland, I don't doubt a bit that KSHSAA would work to move it there. If the 6As wanted theirs at Century II in Wichita, KSHSAA would probably look into it.
KSHSAA has no hidden agendas, no axes to grind. It exists to serve the schools, coaches and athletes of Kansas. That's all they're there for.
in some cases that is true. in some cases it is not. were we to take a coaches poll I am absolutely certain there would be a rather convincing majority-- 80% or better-- to bring back the grand state competition. Do you think that is ever going to happen? I think that KSHAA is attuned to the opinion of the majority in most cases, I simply stated that if all three classes are required to compete to make the cash flow positive at Wichita, then 4a may be tied there (minority group) to make it work for 5-6A (majority group)
I think the bigger question is when. The Girls State Wrestling Championship for Kansas has been on the same day as 6A Wresting state the past two years, that seems unfair. It is true that many girls may not make it to highschool state tournament, but those that do don't get to go to the state tournament agaianst girls, one of the tournaments that actually counts in the career of a female wrestler.
Who knew there was a Girls State? Maybe the KSHAA doesn't know either.
Because of some places having apathy to any other forms of wrestling that might be a good reason why some of us never even knew there was a Greco or Freestyle state competition, let alone a Girl's State...Do we have a Junior High state if not then maybe we should add that and have it in Salina!