Kansas Wrestling
Posted By: ThreePointBuck Takedown Record - 02/15/05 03:30 AM
I was looking at some of the state records and I saw that a Blue Valley guy holds the state record for takedowns in a season with 271. I was wondering if anybody could tell me how many matches he had that year or how I could find that information.
Posted By: 1 Point Buck Re: Takedown Record - 02/15/05 04:22 AM
according to Blue Valley Stillwell web site, Mark Rechtfertig was 37-1.
Posted By: ThreePointBuck Re: Takedown Record - 02/15/05 04:38 AM
Thanks a lot man. I didn't think to look there. Did it happen to say who he lost to.
Posted By: wrestler17105 Re: Takedown Record - 02/15/05 04:00 PM
i have no idea but i do know that Curtis Chenowith is trying to break that and last i knew he's pretty close.
Posted By: mamasawn Re: Takedown Record - 02/15/05 07:06 PM
271 takedowns in 38 matches. That's 7.13 + takedowns per match.
Posted By: Michael Malay Re: Takedown Record - 02/16/05 03:03 AM
how many does chenowith have
cause williams from russell has like 130
Posted By: Isenberg133 Re: Takedown Record - 02/16/05 03:09 AM
umm thats no where near 271
Posted By: bubowski Re: Takedown Record - 02/16/05 03:10 AM
aaron ely from leavenworth has over 180 this season
Posted By: ThreePointBuck Re: Takedown Record - 02/16/05 04:15 AM
If I heard right he has 213. I don't think he has a chance at the single season record anymore. But that is the second most in Kansas history. He has 503 in his career though. He's only 30 away from the career record. I'd say he still has a shot at that one.
Posted By: mike fairleigh Re: Takedown Record - 02/16/05 09:44 AM
Kelley Gabel, the great three timer from St. Francis, had 212 in 1999 against NWKL Competition, which has got to be a pretty notable achievement, put him in another part of the state and that no. would have been a lot bigger, also had 486 in the four years he wrestled. On the other side of that, I remember hearing that Bo Mayness was not taken down in High school, but I don't know where I saw that, so it may not be true. Sounds like a pretty amazing achievement.
Posted By: Nate Smith Re: Takedown Record - 02/16/05 11:27 AM
That is true. Bo was never taken down in high school. A couple people came very close when he was hurt at state though.
Posted By: tnt Re: Takedown Record - 02/16/05 07:59 PM
Who can get the most takedowns? Does it really mean anything? Obviously most of these takedowns are achieved by taking down inferior opponents, often much inferior. The Refertieg's (sp?) and Chenowith's are outstanding wrestlers no doubt, but have they proved anything? Wrestlers of this ability generally get only 4-5 matches a year that really challenge them. The rest don't and yet that is who they build the bulk of their takedown record against.
I am much more impressed with a consecutive falls in a row record like Randy Lewis held (somewhere over 50 I believe)at least at one time. To do that he had to pin some good guys along the way to keep the streak alive and do it at the state tournament in the finals.
Posted By: ThreePointBuck Re: Takedown Record - 02/17/05 06:18 AM
Rechtfertig was a state champion his senior year and only lost 2 or 3 times his junior year. I don't know what you think about that, but I would say thats accomplishing something. And Chenoweth has 3 or 4 tech falls and somewhere around 20 pins in his 31 wins this year. Thats not the best, but it shows that he can finish the matches too.
Posted By: tnt Re: Takedown Record - 02/17/05 12:41 PM
Three Point Buck:
I said Refertieg and Chenowith were outstanding wrestlers. I question if taking inferior wrestlers down again and again to set a takedown record is any accomplishment.
In any other sport it would be called "running up the score" even if they eventually decided to pin their opponent. In other sports it would be considered unsportsmanlike.
Coaches, teams, and athletes have been criticized for "piling on" to achieve some record at the expense of an "outmanned" opponent. Example: not pulling out the starters or continuing to full-court press when the game is essentially over.
To win with grace and to show respect for your opponent is not merely shown by shaking their hand after the match. It also is shown in how you treat them during the match. To take them down over and over when you could end the match
much earlier is not winning with grace or showing any compassion for a weaker opponent. In fact, it is self-serving and makes me a little sick to my stomach when I watch it happen. All for what, to try and achieve some meaningless record that proves nothing.
Posted By: P. Pitbull's Old Dog Re: Takedown Record - 02/17/05 01:23 PM
And whose fault is it that they are weaker? We all get 24 hours a day to do something, some just like to work on getting better on their feet. I remember watching Mark R. wrestle and working for the record he now holds. He was a class act. Was very slick on his feet and would just let the guys up not pushing them around dirty like to cut them. It was a joy to watch, just the determination in his face and the machine like method he projected being relentless for the pursuit of two more points.
I understand what you are saying TNT, about dogging inferior opponents out. But when you are on a quest to be better your opponents has nothing to do with it. You simply go to work and do what you can do every time you step on the mat. Not everyone gets the chance to have great competition to compete against. That is why I think we need to appreciate our great rivals, with out them we would never know how good we can be.

Only those willling to go to far, will really know how far one can go. "T.S. Elliot"

Go for it record breakers

Coach Peterman
Posted By: P. Pitbull's Old Dog Re: Takedown Record - 02/17/05 01:31 PM
I just wouldn't want to be the guy who holds the record for most escapes, How many times were you taken down????????????????????? Dang

Coach Peterman

I still hold the record for the best booty whoppin, I once got beat 51-2. It looked like I had won 2-1 cause the number chart only went to 50. It was at the Ponca City Open by Tom Osborne, who was a 3 time state champ from Oklahoma, and apparently had a crotch lift roll,


Pete,let go of the Legggggggggggg......


What, hunh, what'd you say


My corner never laughed so loud. Chris Bell, Matt Stewart and somebody else but I Can't remember it was 1978.

Ah the good times of youth.

Coach Peterman
Posted By: tnt Re: Takedown Record - 02/17/05 03:52 PM
PitBull:
You said, "when you are on a quest to get better your opponent has nothing to do with it". I disagree.
Your opponent has everything to do with it. You never disrespect or demorilize your opponent in your quest to get better. For less talented young men sometimes it takes great courage for them just to walk out and compete with a great wrestler. It is the great wrestler's responsibility to understand that. It is the coaches responsibility to provide ways for his top wrestlers to continue to improve. Whether, it scheduling tougher competition or making practice more challenging,
It would be the same way if a new inexperienced wrestler walked into your practice room. The better wrestlers often hold his wrestling fate in their hands in how they work with him. They can physically manhandle him each day and he will end up quitting or they can hold back and teach him so that he can end up getting better and someday be someone who can push them in their quest to excel.
Just my opinion! I also enjoyed reading about your 51-2 match in Oklahoma. lol
Posted By: P. Pitbull's Old Dog Re: Takedown Record - 02/17/05 04:44 PM
And you are saying you would prefer for a great wrestler to go light on an inferior opponent, like a sympathy match. I myself would prefer not to be given anything. I would like to go out and earn what I work for. I agree on showing respect and moral support to all wrestlers, we all have to start somewhere. But like I tell the kids I Coach its not all about winning and losing.
If I wrestled John Smith and lost to him 5-4, that would be a win to me in my book. But, how could I consider it a win if he did not go hard and let me lose by a small margin cause he felt sorry for me. Respect is doing your best and letting the chips fall where they may. Like they say respect is earned not given.

Coach Peterman
Posted By: P. Pitbull's Old Dog Re: Takedown Record - 02/17/05 05:25 PM
I agree with tnt in the practice room. We need to help the beginners learn and just booty whippin all the time doesn't help them that much. show them counters to the moves that your hitting on them and as they get better you will too.

Coach Peterman
Posted By: tnt Re: Takedown Record - 02/17/05 05:38 PM
Pitbull:
I am not saying take it easy. I'm saying pin them and get off the mat! Don't toy with them or try to amass takedowns for some meaningless takedown record.
BigoSteve:
Sure, go ahead on work on some new technique when wrestling an inferior opponent. But, to think that is really going to make you that much better is naive. The way a lesser opponent would counter and fight something is probably not close to what you are going to experience when wrestling someone more evenly matched.
And, yes I do think it is the opposing coach and wrestlers responsibility to show compassion to wrestlers who are not of their ability. Why do you think so many good wrestlers recieve forfeits? Maybe, its because the opposing coach doesn't want your wrestler to embarrass his wrestler by seeing how many times he can take him down.
I'm sure if the shoe was on the other foot you wouldn't want somebody just playing with you when they could go out and pin you and get it over with.
Posted By: mike fairleigh Re: Takedown Record - 02/17/05 05:39 PM
I believe that there is merit to what tnt has had to say. It is one thing to wrestle to become all you can be, and entirely another to resort to whatever lengths possible in an attempt to demonstrate that your opponent is a lesser person. In my opinion, it is not required to make the other guy look bad, talk trash to him while you score 15 or twenty points on him, bump him after the match, shove him around when you go out of bounds, etc. , etc. there are a few really good wrestlers right now that can close the gap with any opponent, that realize that it accomplishes nothing to publicly humiliate your opponent. Those people have achieved maturity. alas, some guys spend so much time improving their wrestling that common courtesy is a foreign concept to them. One of the reasons that I enjoy competion in smaller communities is that people in the smaller towns know they have to live together every day, so they have at least a minmal amount of courtesy to one another. In the more populous areas where you will never see the fellow again, the way you act toward that person reflects a lot on who you are. For the most part, I would rather have my son coached by a guy that wrestled and had limited success and worked for it than a four timer that was mean to everyone, because that mentality is not likely to stop when wrestling is over.
Posted By: coach neil Re: Takedown Record - 02/17/05 05:45 PM
I think Bobby Bowden (Florida State Coach) said it best when someone accused him of running up the score in games. "It is not my job to stop our offense, it’s the job of the other team's defense to stop our offense".

I think it is fine for wrestlers to work on their skills (takedowns) during a live match I have had my wrestlers do this before, and it wasn’t to set any records or demoralize the opponent. I think that sometimes a real match situation helps hone the skills more so than practice. I also feel that you have to know when to call off the dogs, because it can go too far. As for running up the team score in a dual, there is no such thing.
Posted By: xtitan98 Re: Takedown Record - 02/17/05 06:06 PM
Who is to say that the record is meaningless. If records are meaningless, then stop keeping them. I have seen Chenowith several times, the takedown record is within his grasp. He has the talent and ability, as long as we are going to have records then why not go for it. It may be meaningless to you, but we all have our goals, and they are not the same for everyone. If I had these kid's talent, then I guarantee I would try for the record. Go to most any high school and you will see people from 20 years ago with some kind of record on the wall. They can bring their kids and share those old moments with them, as a parent it demonstrates that we have already walked the road we are trying to lead our kids on, we do understand that victory takes sacrifice.

Myself, I wish my son had 1/2 of the talent of any of the wrestlers mentioned here. God gave him the desire, unfortunately his body cannot hold up its end.

Jim
Posted By: Scooby Re: Takedown Record - 02/17/05 06:31 PM
See I too had the desire but my parents didn't give me much to work with *L*- Dern it anywho
Posted By: mom4 Re: Takedown Record - 02/17/05 07:16 PM
tnt- I agree with everything you said. Sportmanship goes a long way when presenting an image: be it school, community, sport or individual.
Posted By: usawks1 Re: Takedown Record - 02/17/05 07:32 PM
As to Mark Rechtfertig and the accusation that he humiliated inferior opponents, I offer this. I don’t know if he did so every time but I recall a couple of matches where he pinned an opponent in fairly quick order.

No one has mentioned the emotional or psychological battle that is part of wrestling. How many quality wrestlers, did Mark and his takedown skills, breakdown psychologically? In my opinion, part of wrestling is convincing someone that “you” are his Daddy.

Now, I don’t agree that convincing a weak or overmatched opponent, that he doesn’t belong on the mat with you, is any kind of victory. But, there is something to be said for proving domination against proven opponents. Surely a few wins were against wrestlers who had the tools to stop Mark but due to the strategy employed, did not have the ability.


“the cops told me, I had the right to remain silent … but I didn’t have the ability”
Posted By: Aaron Sweazy Re: Takedown Record - 02/17/05 07:45 PM
[quote] I just wouldn't want to be the guy who holds the record for most escapes, How many times were you taken down?????????????????????[quote]

I probably have that record...I might have the combined record for most points in the least amount of time for a match before termination of the match. I believe the score was 25-20 or 20-15 when I pinned a guy in 1:30 on varsity my sophomore year in Chapman, I'll go find the record book at the high school one of these days.
Posted By: TCarmona Re: Takedown Record - 03/07/05 03:43 PM
What a funny topic. Sounds like some people got tramatized in high school. Maybe it was there kid. Maybe if everyone good takes it easy on one bad kid he will, in time get better?
Posted By: TCarmona Re: Takedown Record - 03/07/05 03:45 PM
What a funny topic. Sounds like some people got tramatized in high school. Maybe it was there kid. Maybe if everyone good takes it easy on one bad kid he will, in time get better?
Posted By: Bill Johnson Re: Takedown Record - 03/07/05 07:11 PM
If you can pin your opponent you should do so. I tell my wrestlers that the greatest stats of any wrestler I have coached is that of Jeff Boyle's 28 takedowns and 28 pins, no other stats at all. Now that is perfection. Jeff practiced his moves in the practice room.
However Lance Roe this year got a good number of takedowns because he can't even pin his sister !!!!!!
Posted By: NurseKs Re: Takedown Record - 03/07/05 09:00 PM
I used to feel anytime I saw a wrestler "playing" with an opponent..it was all about himself. Making the opponent embarassed, stringing the match along. I was corrected when I asked the question "why not just DO it..end the match?" If all a wrestler does is PIN his opponent from the get-go..what mat time does he gain in doing so every single time? Because there will be that 1 kid whom you can't pin and you won't know how to wrestle the entire time because all you HAVE done IS pin in the first period. So I watched those that could and did not. I gained new understanding. Some do it to humiliate...MOST do not. They respect their opponent and gain mat time. Also giving their opponent a chance to wrestle.
Posted By: Ryan Jilka Re: Takedown Record - 03/07/05 09:02 PM
I agree with Coach Johnson. Pinning is the ultimate win in wrestling. At Goddard we only keep track of wins, pins, and team points earned. I don't have a problem with cutting guys, but there is not a better way to help the team than by pinning your opponent. I think that if by cutting a guy a few times will break him enough to get the pin, than go for it. If it is to humiliate him, don't even think about it.

Speaking of pins, why do people always say "I got caught and pinned," but never "I got lucky and caught the guy for the pin?" HMMMMMM.?

Jilka
Posted By: Computerized Shoes Re: Takedown Record - 03/07/05 09:06 PM
That's usually a better quality to hold. Being able to pin your sister means that you have once tried to pin your sister meaning you are probably to close to your sister. I take the route of keeping my distance. It might just be preference because I don't live in Arkansas.
Posted By: Ryan Jilka Re: Takedown Record - 03/07/05 09:08 PM
A couple of weeks ago I was at Eskimo Joe's and Chris Barnes was discussing his record of 205 takedowns in a season at OSU. 205 for him, zero against him. That is CRAZY. If you can do that at the DI level, you are more of a man than most WNBA players!
Posted By: NurseKs Re: Takedown Record - 03/07/05 09:45 PM
Hey Shoes...what is so bad about Arkansas
Posted By: Curtis Chenoweth Re: Takedown Record - 03/07/05 09:46 PM
I know that not all of the people agree with my tactics of getting several takedowns per match, but on dual nights that was how I kept my weight down. If I were to just pin my opponents in 30 seconds then I wouldn't have been able to sweat off very much weight. But I took those matches as a time to get a workout and burn some weight off as well as working on perfecting some of my takedowns. I know it didn't work at all against Taplin, but it helped me to takedown some of my tougher opponents this year, and to make weight.
Posted By: NurseKs Re: Takedown Record - 03/07/05 09:52 PM
See??? And just because Lance Roe of Norton can't pin his sister means Coach Johnson hasn't recruited well enough :p
Posted By: Bracket-man Re: Takedown Record - 03/07/05 10:07 PM
Curtis--you make some very valid points. We had a very good wrestler at BV named Mark Denning, who used multiple takedowns to prolong his matches and keep his shape at it's peak. He, like you, was very capable of ending his matches much sooner, but needed the mat time. Congrats on a tremendous season.
Posted By: Curtis Chenoweth Re: Takedown Record - 03/07/05 10:10 PM
Thank you very much. How did Denning do this year.
Posted By: Bracket-man Re: Takedown Record - 03/07/05 10:17 PM
Mark (2X State Champ, 1X State Runner-up) Denning graduated in 1999. Went to Missouri on wrestling scholarship, but sustained neck injury and has not wrestled since.
Posted By: Curtis Chenoweth Re: Takedown Record - 03/07/05 10:21 PM
That's too bad. Is he coaching now, because it sounds like he would have a lot of knowledge to share.
Posted By: needlles Re: Takedown Record - 03/07/05 10:23 PM
There was a wrestler out of Nebraska a few years ago that had 367 in one year and that was in like 37 matches. Finished his career with 954 and an unbeaten 4x champion. He didn't even start the takedown game until after his freshman season either. I believe he said he could go out and pin everyone in 10 seconds if he wanted but that his coach preferred him to get some mat time.
Posted By: Curtis Chenoweth Re: Takedown Record - 03/07/05 10:24 PM
Thats incredible.
Posted By: Bracket-man Re: Takedown Record - 03/07/05 10:28 PM
Curtis--I believe he is either finishing up or has already finished school at K-State. Not sure if he is coaching or not, he did for awhile at Missouri (after the injury).

Different subject--Have you made your decision for college? Did you ever take a visit to Newman? You were scheduled to visit the day after we had gone to meet with Coach Stovall. Best of luck to you!
Posted By: Curtis Chenoweth Re: Takedown Record - 03/07/05 10:34 PM
Yeah. It's a great school and right now thats looking like thats where I'll go. It all depends on what Labbette is going to be able to offer me. I feel that I'll have great opportunities at either school. I'll wait to make my decision after my visit to Labbette.
Posted By: Larry Wagner Re: Takedown Record - 03/08/05 03:37 AM
I find it amusing that some people here think taking their opponent down several times during a match is a disgrace to the aggressive wrestler. The statement that one doing so is "running up the score" is a joke. Last I knew there was a tech fall rule that prevented it. Of course they are trying to "increase their score". That's the object of the match while looking for the opportunity to get a pin.

What difference does it make if they do it by getting a bunch of near fall points (like good leg wrestlers will often do) or if they get'em by taking their opponents to the mat several times? Each wrestler should be applying their skills to the best of their ability. Since each wrestler's talent and skills are different, we see a variety of approaches to winning a wrestling match. Wouldn't it be pretty boring if everyone used exactly the same moves in every match?

PS: Interesting that there is also another current thread talking about Kansas wrestlers not being good enough on their feet to be of interest to D1 coaches. Hmm.
Posted By: LancerM Re: Takedown Record - 03/08/05 03:59 AM
There are also the kids who cut because while they're great at taking people down, they can't do anything when they get there. I've seen that more than a few times.
Posted By: Curtis Chenoweth Re: Takedown Record - 03/08/05 04:00 AM
Hopefully us Kansans will prove our skills on our feet at nationals and show that us Kansans know how to wrestle well enough to win matches against opponents from across the nation.
Posted By: someoldguy Re: Takedown Record - 03/08/05 04:38 AM
I'm thinking the kid from Nebraska is Daniel Hilario out of Omaha Burke High School. All-American wrestler at UNO now. Kid is insane on his feet. I'm not sure if Dan won state all 4 years though. I'm thinking he got 3rd his freshman year and then proceeded to win it. I know for sure there is at least three brackets hanging on the wall at his house, but it's been 2 years...so I don't know.
Posted By: needlles Re: Takedown Record - 03/08/05 01:40 PM
Not Hilario. Brett Allgood. Pretty sure he won a JUCO National title at Iowa Central and now is redshirting at Kearney at the same weight as Charbonneau.
Posted By: someoldguy Re: Takedown Record - 03/08/05 02:45 PM
needlles, did he just do this in the last 2-3 years? I'm positive you're right just knew thought I had heard Hilario had the record for Nebraska when he was a Fr. at UNO.
Posted By: needlles Re: Takedown Record - 03/08/05 06:00 PM
I think Hilario has one of the division records but they competed in different classes.
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