Kansas Wrestling
Posted By: nclayton Pre-Season Top 40 - 10/30/03 12:06 AM
What Kansas schools, if any, should be on this list?

AMATEUR WRESTLING NEWS PREP 40 POLL (October 03 Pre-Season)

By BOB PREUSSE

#1 Blair Academy N.J.
#2 Apple Valley Minn.
#3 Northampton Pa.
#4 Easton Pa.
#5 Davison Mich.
#6 Great Bridge Va.
#7 St. Paris Graham Ohio
#8 Brandon Fla.
#9 El Reno Okla.
#10 Ponca City Okla.
#11 St. Edward Ohio
#12 Bakersfield Calif.
#13 Massillon Perry Ohio
#14 Wasatch Utah
#15 Absegami N.J.
#16 Montini Ill.
#17 Walsh Jesuit Ohio
#18 Parkersburg W.Va.
#19 Christiansburg Va.
#20 Iowa City West Iowa
#21 Billings Skyview Mont.
#22 Simley Minn.
#23 Providence Catholic Ill.
#24 Clovis Calif.
#25 Sunnyside Ariz.
#26 Luxemburg-Casco Wis.
#27 Clarkston Mich.
#28 Chicago St. Rita Ill.
#29 Cumberland Valley Pa.
#30 Valley Central N.Y.
#31 Kittatinny N.J.
#32 Kenston Ohio
#33 Glenbard North Ill.
#34 Reynolds Pa.
#35 Calvary Chapel Calif.
#36 Bradley Central Tenn.
#37 Lewis Central Iowa
#38 Ponderosa Colo.
#39 St. Mark Del.
#40 Spanish Fork Utah
Posted By: rocknraider Re: Pre-Season Top 40 - 10/30/03 12:40 AM
maybe hoxie. its sad that we cant even break into this. i am disappointed in all of u.
Posted By: coachtwink Re: Pre-Season Top 40 - 10/30/03 03:48 AM
Just curious,
has anyone gone to tournaments with ponka city (ok), el reno (ok) or ponderosa (co)? Was wondering how any kansas teams did when competeing against them.
Posted By: Prant Garker Re: Pre-Season Top 40 - 10/30/03 04:34 AM
Don't put too much stock in these rankings, folks. Two years ago Platte County (MO) was ranked 14th in the nation, only to get spanked by about 4000 points by Manhattan. On that day, The Hat was led by the amazing heart and determination of one Grant Parker, who made it all the way to the 2nd period against Chase Verdorn. Truly, without this courageous finish, victory would not have been possible.
Posted By: RichardDSalyer Re: Pre-Season Top 40 - 10/30/03 10:53 AM
Coach T Wink:

You ask "has anyone gone to tournaments with ponka city (ok), el reno (ok) or ponderosa (co)? Was wondering how any kansas teams did when competeing against them."

If memory serves me correctly, Ponderosa attended the Garden City Invitational last year and won the team championship by approximately 100 points over second place Garden City.

El Reno High School (Oklahoma City suburb) has been nationally ranked for several years and the high school coach (Archie Randall) is highly respected.

I believe Coach Randall is involved with development of the always tough Oklahoma Freestyle teams which rank at the top nationally at the summer Freestyle Tournaments.

In past years, El Reno was thought to heavily recruit high school athletes!

Coach Garcia from Hutchinson, I believe a native Oklahoman, can provide additional information regarding the Oklahoma teams. In past years Hutchinson has traveled to Oklahoma for tournaments and done well. Last year placing second at the Chuck West Tournament behind Del City.

In years past Arkansas City has traveled to the Perry, Okla. Tournament of Champions, which was won last year by Ponca City. Ark City had one wrestler win a championship (Bruce, HWT.)
Posted By: Gatlin04 Re: Pre-Season Top 40 - 10/30/03 04:38 PM
prant garker,
when did they wrestle platt county? you have to realize that they had very little numbers .......barley enough tomake a varsity line up. i came from missouri so i know all about what they have done.

ok tell me if this would not be one of the top teams in the nation.

00-01
at state
14 state qualifiers
13 placers
9 finalist
8 state champions
ALL IN ONE YEAR

half of all those people that placed that year had graduated. whith that they had not even a full line up.
but they still managed to win it the next year also. last year the had 5 0r 6 people and got ....i believe 3rd 0r 4th at state. in 00-01 they were untouchable. i guarntee that manhatan did not beat them in 00-01
Posted By: Prant Garker Re: Pre-Season Top 40 - 10/30/03 06:09 PM
It was the 2001-2002 season. They won state that year with four or five champs, I believe, and they fielded a full team at Highland Park. They weren't at "The Melv" the year before that, and after receiving the beating they did, they didn't come back. (Probably because Parker made Verdorn bleed.)

Not saying they aren't a good team, though. Just saying that it's foolish to try to rank the top 40 teams in the nation. (I'm also saying Manhattan rules.)
Posted By: Off.Farva Re: Pre-Season Top 40 - 10/31/03 04:45 AM
Hoxie definately needs to be on that list somewhere. only team i can think of that has approximately 130 returning state points. That's just crazy, and when you win state by almost doubling the team that came in 2nd. Thats just insane.
Posted By: BigPin22 Re: Pre-Season Top 40 - 10/31/03 07:50 AM
OH GOD!!! don't start with the hoxie B.S. They have one kid that can possibly compete on the national level, and that one kid barely had a .500 winning percent at the freestyle national duals this summer and went two and out at fargo!!!

They are no where good enough to compete on the national level!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: Gatlin04 Re: Pre-Season Top 40 - 10/31/03 02:42 PM
how bad did verdorn beat you?
Posted By: coachtwink Re: Pre-Season Top 40 - 10/31/03 04:04 PM
I don't know about the so called "Hoxie B.S." as Cadfan so eloquently put it. They were the best team in the State last year (any class) and will probably be the best team in the state this year as well (unless the rumors about the two kids being out are true). If any Kansas team desrves a mention they are the ones.
Posted By: Prant Garker Re: Pre-Season Top 40 - 10/31/03 05:03 PM
I personally have never wrestled Verdorn. You seem to have me confused with Grant Parker, who valiantly lasted until the 2nd period against Verdorn after making him bleed (and probably cry, too).
Posted By: Coach Holmes Re: Pre-Season Top 40 - 10/31/03 05:08 PM
New Jersey, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Iowa, Minnesota, Oklahoma, Michigan, Virginia, Illinois, etc.

What do all of the aforementioned states have in common? Actually a few things.

First all of the states mentioned on the Top 40 are states that have traditionally — as in over the last 40 years or so — produced more than their share of Division I and Olympic wrestlers. They all — with the exception of Montana, Florida and Delaware — have (or have had in the last 20 years) strong traditions of Division I wrestling at a national level. And most of them are states that contain many of the Top 25 Division I wrestling schools in the this country.

College wrestling breeds better high school wrestlers. I'm not sure exactly why, but it does. Maybe it's having the best in the country just a few miles away and having those day-to-day heroes to look up to. Whatever it is, we need it in Kansas.

All of this is why Baker University's efforts to bring college wrestling to Eastern Kansas is nothing but a good thing for this sport in the state. Bravo to their efforts, and as a body, we in wrestling in Kansas should start encouraging the other NAIA schools to examine this as a possibility.
Posted By: rocknraider Re: Pre-Season Top 40 - 10/31/03 06:05 PM
i agree completely. there is a lot of solid talent in kansas. Its sad that our best have to leave to other states to have a better opportunity in college wrestling- Tyler and Chris McCormick, Zach Roberson, Bo Maynes, Stewart Bogart, Joe Johnston, Scott Coleman, Dusty Spaulding, Gabe Conahan, Shawn Bunch, Austin Devoe etc..(im sure im forgetting lots of others).

I know that not all of these guys even if they had the chance to wrestle for a D1 kansas program would, but even if half or one third of them were on a D1 kansas team, we would be a big threat in the midwest. And the fact that some of them have to go to mizzou just pisses me off. just my thoughts.
Posted By: tuffEnuff2 Re: Pre-Season Top 40 - 10/31/03 11:23 PM
..well you can thank title 9 for that, they need to abolish that stupid law. Since inception many D-1, D-2 and Juco's had to terminate thier wrestling programs to accomidate title 9 for women. (Title 9 was designed that there would have to be the same number of college womens programs equaled to men's programs) so that women could participate in more sports i.e. waterpolo, field hockey, synchronized swimming, underwater basket weaving or whatever.

Its affirmative action at its worst! It runied college athletics, especially men's college wrestling. which most D-1 schools elminated to accomdiate for women's synchronized swimming.

I believe KU use to have a wrestling program at one time. wouldnt it be cool to have K-State and K-U incorporate or re-instated its wrestling Programs?

Ft. Hays, D-2, is the only 4 year school to offer wrestling. Others are Colby CC, Neosho CC, and Labette CC(?) other schools that terminated thier wrestling programs are Dodge City CC, Garden City CC (which terminated its program right after winning the Juco Nationals!)

On the flip side, Kansas does represent itself fairly well on the schoolastic level in national duals, and in Fargo.

All we can do is to promote our sport in the most positive way possible, encourage others to compete
to go out for the sport and to make it a postive experience for everyone involved so it can perpetuate itself, so it not to become extinct.
Posted By: Coach Holmes Re: Pre-Season Top 40 - 11/01/03 06:29 PM
The thing is that you wouldn't necessarily need a D-I program in the state (and K-State was the last D-I school in the state to have wrestling, dropping it in 1975). I think the odds are long indeed of D-I college wrestling ever returning to Kansas — I just don't see it.

Iowa has 18 four-year schools (3 D-I, 12 D-III and three NAIA) that have wrestling, plus two JUCOs. Oklahoma has many as well. So long as we increase the opportunities for Kansas high school wrestlers to wrestle at the NCAA and NAIA levels, its a good thing. Fort Hays and the jucos are to be applauded for their efforts, but more schools are needed.

Call your college and encourage the start of a program!
Posted By: Les Brown Re: Pre-Season Top 40 - 11/04/03 12:22 AM
I too believe that the lack of a NCAA DI school hurts our perception as a talented wrestling state. Our consistency at the NHSCA senior nationals has brought some accolades our way, but I don't feel we get the respect we deserve.

It is true we don't have many people go on to earn DI AA honors, but we also don't have the number of DI recruits go on to compete that other states do. Kansas' best recruits can go anywhere, but there are a lot of talented individuals who give up the sport to attend K-State or KU instead of competing at the most elite of levels.

Unfortunately budgetary constraints and Title IX have not helped the likelihood of K-State or KU or WSU.... starting the sport. It is nice to see KSU and KU fielding teams for the club circuit - at least its a start.

Also in this thread Cardfan indicated that Hoxie did not deserve to be mentioned in the pre-season ranking using the basis that they didn't have anyone compete well on the freestyle and/or greco tours.

I guess I am assuming that the poll is based on folkstyle not freestyle/greco, so I disagree with his logic in excluding them.

While certainly adequate on their feet, Hoxie's overwhelming strength has never been from the neutral position. But they, as a group, are quite good on the mat. And that alone can create a pretty big difference in success between the various disciplines. Couple that with the lack of a dedicated freestyle club in NW KS and it is little wonder that Hoxie does not field a lot of AA's in the summer months - not an excuse, just an observation.

Do they deserve to be on the list? Who knows? Last year Hoxie received ranking as one of the top 10 teams in the OK, MO, KS, TX region and some of the best teams in the nation come from those states. But it is purely speculation as to whether last year's team should have cracked into the nation's top 40. Regardless, they were pretty dog-gone tough.

This year's version has a lot of firepower too and, barring injury, they should have another great season. Their senior class is loaded with talent - especially when considering Charlie Ochs missed most of his sophomore season and was not able to wrestle last year. And Jeremiah Moss has not wrestled since his freshman year.

With that said, it will be interesting to see whether Hoxie is able to match the depth and consistency all the way through the line-up that they did a year ago. 13 qualifiers, 11 medals and 218.5 team points will be tough to top - especially with the amount of returning talent that 3-2-1A is bringing back this year.

One thing is for certain, you can bet Baker and Porsch will have them ready to go once they finish up the fine football season they have going.

Just felt compelled to offer my biased opinion here. Thanks.

And hey.....we are less than a month away from best sport in Kansas. Good luck to all.
Posted By: Timmmmmmmy Re: Pre-Season Top 40 - 11/04/03 01:08 AM
Les,
I agree totally with you that Charlie is a great wrestler and he has faced some very adverse situations in the last two seasons, but do you really feel that he could have made varsity last year. I'm sure every coach in the state would love to have Coach Baker's problem of not having an opening for a state placer but in your unbiased opinion do you think he would have made varsity?
Posted By: BigPin22 Re: Pre-Season Top 40 - 11/04/03 03:24 AM
To Les, I do think that Hoxie is a good team, just not a top team in the nation. Here is how they rank the individual wrestlers and teams.

FREESTYLE DOES HAVE A HUGE IMPACT!

Several factors were considered in determining these rankings. They include: (1) accomplishments at the state high school championships (folkstyle) (2) National Junior Freestyle and Greco-Roman success (3) Cadet National Freestyle and Greco-Roman success (4) performances at prestigious high school tournaments (5) information from coaches and parents (6) state from which nominees hail. An update will be forthcoming.
Posted By: Les Brown Re: Pre-Season Top 40 - 11/04/03 11:43 AM
Tim....my -

Good question. Who knows how things would have turned out. But, if memory serves me correctly (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this), Ochs won the open tryouts last season at 119 to start the season.

Baker had originally intended to go 112 until Ochs was injured and they then shuffled the line-up. Of course Tyler went on to have a great year and who knows how a tryout between those two would have turned out later in the year. And Michael Schamberger stepped in and delivered a great season too.

My point was intended to be that it is a pretty solid class and he was definately a part of it.

People forget that Charlie was a tough call in the semis away from the championship finals as a freshman.

Then as a sophomore he limped through the season injured and drew eventual champ Kyle Patton in the first round. Despite being injured and winded (because of a lack of mat time casued by the injury) Charlie gave Kyle all he wanted in the match. It was 2-0 late and ended 4-0 after he got caught when he tried a desparation move to close the match. Charlie fought all the way out the back to place 4th.

And Cardfan, I'll take your word for it that freestyle/greco results are a sound tool in determining folkstyle rankings. But I still contend you can be a pretty tough folkstyle team without exceling at the alternative disciplines.
Posted By: Timmmmmmmy Re: Pre-Season Top 40 - 11/05/03 11:51 AM
By no means did I take your point any other way than you intended. He is part of a super class there at Hoxie and I hope he can stay healthy and finish on a positive note. Thanks for the info Les.
Posted By: P. Ochs Re: Pre-Season Top 40 - 11/05/03 03:53 PM
LES.....MMMMMM

Just want to correct you a little. Charlie Ochs was hurt on the second day of practice. Tyler and Charlie never had a tryout match.
Posted By: Mike Juby Re: Pre-Season Top 40 - 11/05/03 04:15 PM
Regarding the comments on the lack of freestyle/Greco success by Hoxie wrestlers, I think it should be noted that Tyler Baker went 4-1 in Greco and 1-2 in freestyle at Fargo this past summer.

For those of you who are not familiar with the competition at the Junior/Cadet Nationals, those are very respectable numbers. Furthermore, I saw most of Tyler's matches, and he was highly competitive against the very best in the nation.
Posted By: RJW Re: Pre-Season Top 40 - 11/05/03 04:56 PM
The fact of the matter is that Hoxie's success speaks for itself and if any team in Kansas should be nationally ranked, it must be Hoxie. I can see why some get tired of hearing about Hoxie, but don't let this cloud your mind and lead you to derespect a great wrestling program. Hoxie was the best team (all classes) in Kansas last year and the still holds that crown until one of us proves otherwise!
Posted By: iFeelFat Re: Pre-Season Top 40 - 11/05/03 10:17 PM
i believe a large part of hoxie's success is due to their water. which i will be selling bottles of at tournaments this year, if interested please contact me at dudethatwrstls@hotmail.com
the otherpart of hoxie's success is due to selective breeding
Posted By: Les Brown Re: Pre-Season Top 40 - 11/05/03 10:23 PM
Thanks for setting me straight little kneepads.

I remembered that Charlie got hurt in the first week. But for some reason I thought I remembered him resting it, competing at the public tryouts and then re-injuring and hanging it up before the Hoxie Invite. But apparently had it wrong.

I stand corrected. Sorry I messed that one up.

Thanks.
Posted By: mike fairleigh Re: Pre-Season Top 40 - 11/06/03 02:32 AM
In response to certain comments belittling the accomplishments of certain wrestlers because they didn't wrestle freestyle at all or didn't do it well--- hogwash! you can dismiss a national championship that Gilliland won in folkstyle because he didn't win Fargo, but I don't see anyone selling their Kriegbaum stock because he got beat in a freestyle match this summer. fact is, when the state tournament gets underway this February, the participants will be wrestling folkstyle. same for the NCAA. In Kansas, the Cadet system is supported by the sometimes unwilling financial aid resulting from several dollars being taken from the registration and district, regional and state kids FOLKSTYLE tournaments because there isn't enough interest to support the few wrestlers that have the whole summer to do nothing but wrestle , and the coaches that are paid to go with them after the southern plains contest. No one pays the lion's share of the folkstyle coaches that donate their time each season. say what you will about freestyle, it is a parasite of the folkstyle program in this state.
Posted By: BigPin22 Re: Pre-Season Top 40 - 11/06/03 03:12 AM
I wasn't trying to belittle or disrespect anyone's wrestling accomplishments, in fact I think that Gilliand is a great wrestler and will be a four timer. I was simply making a point that one of the main reasons Hoxie is, and will not be ranked in the nation is due to their lack of freestlye and greco national accomplishments, which is a major criteria in the ranking process. As for the national tournament that Gilliand won in folkstyle, that is a great feat, however I don't think that the competition there is anywhere near the competion level at Fargo.(was the tournament he won for 16&under?)

As for Kreigbam, I believe he still recieved All American status in Greco Roman at Fargo.

As for the freestyle being a "parasite" to the folkstyle program, you are dead wrong. Freestyle and Greco is the international sport, we are just hurting ourselves in the long run by not wrestling that way in kids, high school, and college!

I also feel that the best of the best folkstyle kids in Kansas are great Freestyle and Greco wrestlers. (Kreigbam, Eirsman, Taplin, Zousas, Grater, Cornejo)
Posted By: mike fairleigh Re: Pre-Season Top 40 - 11/06/03 11:11 AM
Possibly in some venues that is true. IN KANSAS (as I posted previously), the freestyle discipline would not be able to operate at its present level without the funds that it siphons from those competitors in the folkstyle venue. without that money, their operation would be greatly hobbled or absent. That very well could be a statement explaining why there are no Kansas teams in the National top 40, If accomplishments in those styles are given strength in the rating. The traditional generation to generation legacy that makes the nw kansas area so strong is rooted in folkstyle--its what dad and grandad, and possibly great grandad did. The united states has proven from time to time that folkstyle influenced wrestlers can excel in frestyle, and the number of Iranian, Russian, and other foreign students that are given scholarships prove that freestyle wrestlers can excell at folkstyle. My point is that each style is separate, and one is no less important to its supporters than the other. As for changing to freestyle, I don't think that
will happen any sooner than we embrace the metric system of measurement, or that professional soccer replaces american football.
Folkstyle may not be what the rest of the world does, but it is an american heritage that will endure.
Posted By: Mike Juby Re: Pre-Season Top 40 - 11/06/03 03:04 PM
Mike,

I would disagree with some of the observations that you’ve made regarding the funding, support and advantages of the Junior/Cadet program in Kansas.

First, you are absolutely correct that the Junior/Cadet program relies heavily on the support provided by our state’s strong folkstyle program. However, there have been multiple votes held by the state body over the years over how this program should be funded, and the appropriate levels of funding. In every case, these votes have been overwhelmingly supportive of the current funding levels, refuting your statement that the funding is “unwilling.”

Second, you refer to the Junior/Cadet program as a “parasite.” I think the relationship is more of a symbiotic one. For the wrestlers in these age groups, most of the significant regional and national events available to them come in the freestyle and Greco Roman disciplines, not folkstyle. This is where our high school athletes have the greatest opportunity to compete against the best in the nation, both to improve aspects of their wrestling technique as well as to attract the attention of college coaches.

I am on record as stating that my favorite style of wrestling is folkstyle. Despite this, I have seen firsthand the improvement that has come to kids who have participated in the freestyle/Greco program. My goal is to make Kansas wrestling the best it can be, and a force to be reckoned with across the country. The Junior/Cadet program is an important component of reaching that goal.
Posted By: mike fairleigh Re: Pre-Season Top 40 - 11/06/03 03:55 PM
Mike:
If you read my post, you will notice that I said "sometimes unwilling" participation. While the vote is overwhelming at the state board level, I can assure you that there has been consideaable speaking out against the procedure at the district meeting level, and in my recollectionin the western division meeting that was held at Scott City about 4 years ago, there was enough grass roots opposition to the funding as it existed then that ther was a motion made to look into pulling out of Ks. kids and participating the Oklahoma AAU program. There have been several state board decisions made in the past (such as moving the birth date to qualify for the age groups to October from Jan.)
that were likely unanamous at the board level but certainly not at the rank and file level. No decision that is made in a group that big is ever going to be popular, but lets not fool ourselves-- if every folkstyle participant (parent) was given the option to pay the frestyle tarriff, for lack of a better word, or not, you wouldn't get nearly as much money as you do, and if a vote were taken of every member of usa wrestling Ks. instead of just the board,
I wonder if it would exist at the level that it does. I quit participating in Kids when an additional 2 dollars was added to the cost of our registration because the cadet program had mismanaged their budget the year before and they needed the funds to continue. If I recall correctly, there wasn't any popular, one-member-one vote determination of policy, It was a board decision. the fee was supposed to go back down when the emergency was rectified, but I never found out if it was or not as that was the last kids membership I ever paid for. I don't intend to beat this issue to death, because I love wrestling, and I firmly believe that every
chance should be given to every wrestler in every style, I just think that representing the funding decision to pay for one style by charging another is #1. wrong, and #2, a decision that was overwhlemingly reached by a very small number of board members, not every certified member of usa wrestling ks.
Posted By: Brent Lane Re: Pre-Season Top 40 - 11/06/03 04:18 PM
I might be mistaken but most of those teams in the top 40 are allowed to travel outside their own state and compete in some of the largest high school tournaments in the nation. Kansas rules hinder outside competition. If you don't show up you can't compete and if you can't compete, you won't show up. That simple. Kansas wrestling is in good hands.

Oh and who would disagree with Blair Academy being #1.
Posted By: Mike Juby Re: Pre-Season Top 40 - 11/06/03 04:39 PM
Mike,

Some members of USAW-Kansas find it difficult to recognize the benefits and challenges associated with the Junior/Cadet program, when their own children may be years away from this age group. I’ve known several people whose viewpoint has changed significantly as their child grew older (I hope he doesn’t mind if I mention his name, but Greg Grater – current Kids Executive Director and father of high school state champion Danny Grater – is a perfect example of this growing awareness of the benefits that come with involvement in the sport). Although I recognize that your opinion is based on knowledge and experience, this is not the case with many.

I would never argue that there are not some members of USAW-Kansas who feel that the support of the Junior/Cadet program is a waste of money. Instead, I was trying to point out that the member clubs of USAW-Kansas (over 180, at current count, which is not really a "very small number of board members") have consistently voted to support this program. As you stated, we do not have a vote by every single member, but I must believe that the club officers who cast their clubs’ votes are generally qualified to represent their members’ wishes in this matter, and will vote based on what they believe is best for their members.

Not every high school wrestler chooses to participate in the Junior/Cadet program. For those that do, I am proud that we have a state organization that is committed to helping these athletes, many of whom represent the best our state has to offer, by helping to absorb the significant financial costs that participation at this level entail.
Posted By: Prant Garker Re: Pre-Season Top 40 - 11/06/03 05:39 PM
I hate to agree with the Evil Empire, but I must admit that Jike Muby is right when he says the relationship between folkstyle and freestyle is a symbiotic one. I see freestyle is like a tapeworm that the wrestling world has injested. Sure, the tapeworm steals some of our nourishment ($$$) every once in awhile, but at the same time it keeps us slim, trim, and ready to go.

And in regards to your funding problem- do you think every American is cool with the government taking a certain amount of money to fund roads? I know people often complain about the roads in Kansas are constantly under construction (*ahem* I-70 between Hat Town and Topeka...), and are less than willing to give up parts of their paycheck. Whether you agree to funding the roads or not, you still drive on them...fixing the roads is in the best interest of the state, just as funding the freestyle program is in the best interest of the sport.

So there you have it. Freestyle=tapeworm, freestyle funding = highways. Simple.
Posted By: Brett Shoffner Re: Pre-Season Top 40 - 11/06/03 06:38 PM
If anyone knows how much freestyle helps, I will speak out. 15-17 record sophomore year, non-qualifier to 26-12 6A placer junior year. I personally attribute that turnaround to freestyle and Greco. Probably the two most important things I learned from FS/GR that I use in folkstyle were positioning and toughness. No one that has ever been involved in FS/GR can deny that a huge reason, probably number one, they participate is to get better at folkstyle. Look at the stats: the best FS/GR wrestlers are usually the best folk wrestlers. Examples are Mocco from Iowa/Blair, Kish from Minnesota/Michigan, the Schlatters from Ohio and here in Kansas the ones mentioned above (cardfan's previous post). To say that FS/GR has no bearing on folkstyle is ludicrous. Point number 2: where is most college recruiting done??? FARGO. Scouts are there by the 100's; how many do you see at the high school state tourneys? Answer-not many. Final point; how else, besides FS/GR, does one compare HS teams/individuals. Check the individual rankings, then check the results from Fargo; there's a very high correlation there.

By the way, Prant, wonderful analogy.
Posted By: Prant Garker Re: Pre-Season Top 40 - 11/06/03 06:51 PM
This doesn't really have to do with what we're talking about, but I saw a guy wearing a "Blair Academy Wrestling" jacket the other day, and he was shaped like a square.
Posted By: mike fairleigh Re: Pre-Season Top 40 - 11/06/03 07:07 PM
Prant:
Your analogy is a good one. I would like to clarify it further, if I may. The taxes you pay for Highways are justified because you use the highways. No one like to pay for them, but if they were all closed until we paid our share, we would ante up as soon as we needed to go somewhere. No argument that freestyle improves the wrestler that applies himself, and no doubt many scholarships are decided at freestyle tournaments. My point is that those who use the freestyle program should pay for it. Compare it to the Turnpike system. you want to go to Topeka from Wichita, its $3.25. If you are content to go to Emporia, its $2.00 . If you decide to stay home, its free. But you pay for your trip.
If you want to go to Fargo, maybe its 400.00
(don't know, just seemed like that is as much as
ANYONE could be forced to pay to go to North Dakota) but no one that chooses to stay home should have to pay for it. So I have no problem with the freestyle/Greco program, just make it like the turnpike.
Posted By: L Grater Re: Pre-Season Top 40 - 11/06/03 07:20 PM
I would like to respond to the individual who does not agree with the money being spent towards the Cadet/Junior program. At one time, I also felt the same way.

What Mike Juby said earlier about a perfect example (Danny Grater, our son) is true. When Danny was a beginner at the Kids level, it was hard to understand why they needed this money. However, our minds changed as we seen our son grow and develop into a better wrestler, not only at the kids level, but also at the high school and national level. As a freshman, he was able to compete with upperclassman and placed 6th at the HS State Tournament and last year, was a State Champion as a sophomore. He has also been an All-American at both levels, as well as a National GR Cadet Champion. He did not get that way by just doing folkstyle!! He achieved these honors by wrestling in the summer program and competing with best at Regional / National tournaments like Fargo! It is not only our son who has benefited, but any wrestler who has participated in the program. The money that is spent by our Kansas Cadets & Juniors Division is minimual compared to what some state programs spend (I've been to Fargo and have asked other pairers what it cost their sons to attend).

From what I read earlier, you stated that money is being collected from sub-district, district, and state tournaments at the kids level to help fund these program. That additional fee WAS DONE AWAY WITH several years ago and the Cadet/ Junior program is funded at the corporate level. Even if the Kids Level was still helping fund the Cadets/Jrs., where better to spend an additional $5-$10 than on our youth!! If they are wrestling at these levels, most likely they aren't the ones getting into trouble.

Where do you think these older wrestlers came from? They came from the Kids Program and have just moved up in age. They are still very much a part of Kansas Kids Wrestling, just a little older. We need to support these wrestlers, whether they are 8 years old or 17 years old and I have boys at both those levels!!

As Brett said, where are the college coaches at - Fargo!!! The college coaches are looking for the better quality wrestlers who are willing to participate at that level, and who put in the extra time during the off season and work at trying to be better.

If you have a problem how the Junior / Cadet Programs is doing or being funded, I suggest you contact your District Director or feel free to contact Greg Grater, Kids State Director.

These programs have our full support and will for years to come. Until you have a child who participates and you actually see how they can benefit, it is hard to understand. All levels of wrestling in the State of Kansas need to be supported!!

Leanna Grater
gratergr@kansas.net
Posted By: parkwayred Re: Pre-Season Top 40 - 11/06/03 09:04 PM
Thank you Leanna, I to wish to show my support for the summer program, I do not know of the monies that Mr. Fairleigh is talking about, but the Manhattan boys seem to do a pretty good job raising their own cash to participate. And I have spent countless dollars of my own driving them half way around the state. I have seen definite improvements in both of my boy’s ability. The summer wrestling is a good time for all these young men to get together and trade techniques that they have acquired from their school coaches and other wrestlers along the line. The comrade unbelievable it’s pretty neat that these young men can put their hometowns behind them and become “KANSAS” wrestlers.

Mark Miller
Manhattan Wrestling
Posted By: mike fairleigh Re: Pre-Season Top 40 - 11/06/03 11:52 PM
well.. uh.. I guess I was wrong, freestyle is ok and we can all live together in harmony, ok?
What do you guys think about Hoxie being in the top 40?
Posted By: BigPin22 Re: Pre-Season Top 40 - 11/07/03 03:53 AM
I don't mean to bag on Hoxie all the time, I just don't feel like they are one of the best teams in the nation. They are obviously one of the best teams presently in Kansas, but I think there have been better teams in the past. The early 90's Ark City teams had several wrestlers that were, or were capable of being All Americans. I don't see that being the case in Hoxie right now. Their best wrestler will be at, arguably, one of the toughest weight classes(130-140lbs.) year in, and year out. They are strong up and down the line up but I think some of the states such as New Jersey, New York, California, Ohio, Oklahoma, Iowa, Minnesota. Pennslyvania, etc. could each put out several teams that would beat them.

Sorry if that offends you, but that is my honest opinion. There is only one real way to know for sure, and we both know that will never happen!
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