Kansas Wrestling
Good weekend of wrestling, though we really missed the crowd noise of 4A in Wichita.

Weird things occurred this weekend, and maybe I've got my underwear bunched.

Oddity #1

Wrist bands attached to our wrestlers. What was it's intent again? And when did we agree with this? When were we notified of such implementation (other in our packets when we opened them)?

As soon as I opened the packet, I saw the yellow sheet and went to ask one of the tournament directors about the bands. His response was that they are doing it at national tournaments in college. I asked someone that went to the National Duals in Iowa and he said there weren't any bands and I haven't seen them used anywhere else.

I asked one of the officials that I know because if anyone would know, he would. He told me that in the officials meeting that he was told the bands are on, they are not to worry about it. It would seem to me that KSHSAA is asking the officials to not do what they are suppose to do - protect the athletes. One finger caught, then broke is a huge liability for KSHSAA (one would think).

Oddity #2 - If this was an executive decision, wouldn't it be better to notify the participating schools of such change before opening a packet? What is the "legality" (poor wording) of issuing such an order? Is such ruling from top down correct? I've tried to go through the KSHSAA website and cannot figure it out. Probably a question best left to Salyer.

Oddity #3 - Two man mechanics during the entire tournament. Not that I don't like it, but didn't see the purpose. What is the role of the 2nd official? Can he confer and reverse a call made by the head official? In Frestyle/Greco, it works a little different. I understand the head official has control of the match, so what does the assistant do other than signify illegal holds that the head doesn't see? If a kid is fleeing the mat, can he make that call over the head official?

In all, the tourney went without a hitch and it was enjoyable.

Congrats to all, especially to the Edison boys, the 6A 119 lbers and 125 lbers (The top 3 in 6A and top 2 in 5A were in the same weight @ one time HOLY COW), the insane 5A running for state champion team title, and various upsets/suprises that got no love in the press but didn't let it get to them.

I had a blast.

Jeremy Gibson
Asst Coach
Topeka High
i agree w/ you on the wrist bands, they were nuthing but an annoyance and a hastle.

i do think two refs was a good idea tho. one time i had a figure fore on a kids head and the kid pushed my foot out of the figure fore to a illegal scissors. one ref called me for the illegal hold but the other ref argued that it was because the opponent forced it. the other kid didnt get the penalty point. this is probably a rare occurence but i like the two refs.
The second officials at the 4A tournament got caught in watching the match instead of watching the clock. I think I saw 3-4 times and not just in the finals where the second official didn't do his job of watching the clock and they had to pull a third official off the bench to decide what happened.
Quote:
Originally posted by Gibby:
Good weekend of wrestling, though we really missed the crowd noise of 4A in Wichita.

Weird things occurred this weekend, and maybe I've got my underwear bunched.

Oddity #1

Wrist bands attached to our wrestlers. What was it's intent again? And when did we agree with this? When were we notified of such implementation (other in our packets when we opened them)?

As soon as I opened the packet, I saw the yellow sheet and went to ask one of the tournament directors about the bands. His response was that they are doing it at national tournaments in college. I asked someone that went to the National Duals in Iowa and he said there weren't any bands and I haven't seen them used anywhere else.

I asked one of the officials that I know because if anyone would know, he would. He told me that in the officials meeting that he was told the bands are on, they are not to worry about it. It would seem to me that KSHSAA is asking the officials to not do what they are suppose to do - protect the athletes. One finger caught, then broke is a huge liability for KSHSAA (one would think).

Oddity #2 - If this was an executive decision, wouldn't it be better to notify the participating schools of such change before opening a packet? What is the "legality" (poor wording) of issuing such an order? Is such ruling from top down correct? I've tried to go through the KSHSAA website and cannot figure it out. Probably a question best left to Salyer.

Oddity #3 - Two man mechanics during the entire tournament. Not that I don't like it, but didn't see the purpose. What is the role of the 2nd official? Can he confer and reverse a call made by the head official? In Frestyle/Greco, it works a little different. I understand the head official has control of the match, so what does the assistant do other than signify illegal holds that the head doesn't see? If a kid is fleeing the mat, can he make that call over the head official?

In all, the tourney went without a hitch and it was enjoyable.

Congrats to all, especially to the Edison boys, the 6A 119 lbers and 125 lbers (The top 3 in 6A and top 2 in 5A were in the same weight @ one time HOLY COW), the insane 5A running for state champion team title, and various upsets/suprises that got no love in the press but didn't let it get to them.

I had a blast.

Jeremy Gibson
Asst Coach
Topeka High
The crowd noise was missing in Salina too! Along with the crowd!
The wristbands were necessary due to a number of spectators in the past attempting to gain free entry by wearing a singlet and warm-up of their favorite school.
We discovered in Salina that you still need a towel tapper when using a two man officiating crew. You can't believe how many clock errors there were where the match continued long after time had expired. In one instance it was at least 10 seconds or more before anyone noticed the error. I'm not sure exactly what is the job of the second official. Is it to watch the clock, or as is often the case, agree with a poor call by the first official?
Yaaa those wrist bands were a hassle. If they were going to have them they should gave you a second one after you weighed in friday night.
I personally like the 2 refs idea because alot of the time I see a ref make a bad call, or he forgot to give points, and the extra ref is just a back up.
Apparently none of you has gone to Junior/Cadet Nationals at Fargo or Enid or Greeley. Which is a shame when you think about it. If you had you'd know that wrist bands have been the norm for a long time.
The crowd noise was missing in Salina, but I think it was for a couple of different reasons. Firstly, the teams that seem to always travel well didn't have anybody in the finals. For example Clay Center had no finalists, so they weren't around for finals. Another reason is a lack of exciting matches. When there was an exciting match going on, the crowd definitely got into it and made plenty of noise. But there just didn't seem to be to terribly many of those this year.
Gutwrench,

Three different styles. The comment made was in reference to college wrestling.

Last I checked, FILA is not the sanctioning body for collegiate wrestling.
Quote:
Originally posted by Wellington Gocke:
The second officials at the 4A tournament got caught in watching the match instead of watching the clock. I think I saw 3-4 times and not just in the finals where the second official didn't do his job of watching the clock and they had to pull a third official off the bench to decide what happened.
I was the official's liaison for the 4a tournament and it was mixed reaction on the 2 man crew for the tournament. I think the thing that really made for a tough deal in the finals was the horn wasn't very loud either.
Quote:
Originally posted by Aaron Sweazy:
Quote:
Originally posted by Wellington Gocke:
The second officials at the 4A tournament got caught in watching the match instead of watching the clock. I think I saw 3-4 times and not just in the finals where the second official didn't do his job of watching the clock and they had to pull a third official off the bench to decide what happened.
I was the official's liaison for the 4a tournament and it was mixed reaction on the 2 man crew for the tournament. I think the thing that really made for a tough deal in the finals was the horn wasn't very loud either.
And they paid to put you up in the Holiday Inn for this? You live less than an hour away!
Quote:
Originally posted by gutwrench1:
Apparently none of you has gone to Junior/Cadet Nationals at Fargo or Enid or Greeley. Which is a shame when you think about it. If you had you'd know that wrist bands have been the norm for a long time.
Wrestlers did not have to wear them in Enid 2005 or Greeley 2004.
The wrist bands were a dumb idea! I looked at over 20 pics from the NCAA's from the last two years and not one athelete was wearing a wrist band. Plus they were getting all bunch, twisted, etc. and kept falling off of my bigger kids.

2nd official seemed pointless to me! I never saw a call reversed period! The only thing I did see was a locked hands call by the second official. Also, in the Furches/Rogers match in the semi's it seemed to me from the stands that when there was a controversial call both officials were actually watching the clock and not the wrestling. I don't know what call was right or wrong, but I do know that one official should be counting down and one should be watching action. However, nice job Nathan in winning your first a many state championships.

4A crowd was missed, but I loved getting out at a decent hour and not having to be there on Saturday until 10:00. I still think the rest of the coliseum was full except the side where 4A usually is.

I think they should do four mats for one class on one end, and four mats for the other class on the other end instead of sides.

Weigh ins starting 20 minutes late and not letting teams in early to check is ridiculous.

Overall, very enjoyable. Clean facilities, Security was more polite, etc.

Looking forward to the next year of it!
In regards to a question posted earlier. No the assistant referee cannot overturn the decision of the head official of the match. There are there for a number of reasons, namely two sets of eyes on the situation. Sportsfans comment about agreeing with a poor call from the first official was unneccasary. Some times two referees will have a different opinion about a judgement situation. In this case the head official of the match ultimatly makes the decision. So that doesn't mean that he is agreeing with the call, he is just defaulting the call to the person who has to make it.
ya i dont have alot to say about the wristbands other than the were a hassle and annoying. but i think they did it that way this year so that kids couldnt hand up their necklaces up in the stands so other kids could come down on the floor.
Thanks Coach Gibby--you are the best. Our family has the greatest respect for you.

Ms. Jenni
These wristbands have been used at High School Sr. Nationals for several years. I was also very nervious about their use at first, but they have seemed to work well and have had no effect on the wrestling. Most wrestlers say they forget that they have them on when on the mat in competition.
Thanks coach - never gone to Senior Nationals, so I was unaware.

My second question was more in reference to diplomatic procedure by KSHSAA. With USA Wrestling Kansas, any adoptions of national rules, etc., is brought to the table at the state body. It is there that we discussed issues like the taping of shoes, etc., and then voted on the implementation or lack thereof. At our rules meetings at the beginning of the season, the wristbands were never discussed.

Now I know I'm knitpicking, but if we have a procedure in place (I can't find the by-laws so maybe there is no procedure) on voting for things such as shoulder to shoulder weigh-ins, then when was this voted on? And if there is no need for vote, but can be administered through a top-down decision, what is the procedure for notification?

Again, I know I'm just being picky, but if we have a governing body that we have to answer to, we should be made aware of such changes. To KSHSAA's defense, maybe we were made aware of it but the AD didn't notify us. As I talked to others, they were caught unaware as well.

In my opinion, this should have been an item of discussion/debate. More than likely, the vote would have implemented the bands.

I'm not upset about the bands, but more upset that protocol (if there is any, I can't figure it out) was not followed (at least the perception of it).

Jeremy Gibson
My question is, why did someone feel the wristbands were suddenly needed? Has there been problems in the past that warranted the change?
"I think they should do four mats for one class on one end, and four mats for the other class on the other end instead of sides."

That sure would have made it easier to see what was going on!!
Mat location was an issue that could be improved on. I personally don't like 2 finals matches going on at the same time either. I know that one is not an easy solution though.
What would be wrong with a stamp instead of the wristband? The stamp would never be in the way and the only issue that I see that could become of it would be to restamp the 2nd day or perhaps have to refresh due to hand washing etc. A stamp on the bare shoulder would fix that. Also I mentioned to State oraganizers to go to four books instead of two to speed up the process of checking teams including busdrivers, cheerleaders, wrestlers, coaches managers etc. Two books for 5a and two books for 6a alphabetical order and split into two books each to get the kids out of the cold quicker but mainly so to shorten up the lines. They liked the idea. As for everyone else who isnt a wrestler the bands are a good idea for those who are permitted to enter the floor area. Another improvement that needs to be worked on is perhaps a buffer between table workers coaches and cheerleaders as well as cheering supporters. This is a nightmare!! If your working a table and you have 25 or 30 people screaming, (and dont get me wrong i scream as much as anyone) its hard to keep focused for an entire day and is equally hard for coaches to do their job on the matt. I feel this is why some coaches get drawn out of their chairs coaching a wrestler and only adds to the anxiety when they feel like the wrestler totally cannot hear their them. I saw one coach ejected and I felt like unrightfully so as I have never seen the history of this man of ever being out of line. The noise behind him may have been a contributer and it was pretty sad he was not able to be in the arena as one of his young athletes won the state title. I would personally like to hear constructive suggestions or critic on theese issues. I also thought Jerry Taylor did a very good job this year and should be commended. Years in the past have been horrible in some areas.
I agree on the four mats at each end, and had hoped that would be the format before arriving.But no, so if you had a seat at Mat 1 or 8, you were pretty well assured you weren't going to see much at the other end, with refs, wrestlers, equipment and such between you and the action. Oh well!

I will say it was nice having more room, (4A don't take it personally, the enthusiasm you bring was missed, but the sheer mass of people and the near fistfights with Granny over saving 8 rows of seats was NOT missed).

AS to the wristband thing for non-wrestlers and the control of who is on the floor. I gave this quite a bit of thought from my front row seat in the stands as I watched mothers and fathers, JV wrestlers, girlfriends, and many other "hangers-on" move from the stands to the floor as if they had and reason to be there. Some were not above shinnying down the bleachers underneath some well-placed banners!

I could have made a bundle if there was a bounty for pointing out "unauthorized" individuals to Security. Security has no real way of knowing, so they have to rely on the bands. But who is responsible for distribution of bands? Well, this being a sport that relies heavily on volunteer participation, those very volunteers being family and fans of wrestlers, geeeee, hmmmm? How do you think all the counterfeit/extra/extremely loosely cinched bands made their way onto the wrists of people who didn't need them? And we ALL know that with cell phones, all you need is to have your kid call you after he sees what color band it is, you go off to Party City and buy your own! Geez!

While there was just as much abuse as in the past, it wasn't such an issue for the fact that the sheer size of the crowd, on the floor and in the stands, was not as large. I liked the view from the front row better, and figured that those who HAVE to be down on the floor are just wanting to bask in some of the ambience, because it is really tougher to see from down there anyway, so it can't always be about the view, but more about seeing if you can do something that others are restricted from.

I will say that it does make it hard for the statisticians to do their job, when they are actually working their responsiblity and often elbowed out by someone who "has to be part of the action" at the dasher board. If there are chairs for the middle schoolers to sit in the center strip for blood work, why can't a stat person have a seat there? they wouldn't be matside (as if that was a some problem anyway, it is how they usually work) and they could get a better line of sight to the ref.

Having parents down there, over the shoulder of a coach is just as much a concern, and I saw that from MANY schools, so nobody should single out one parent. If I was a coach, I would be concerned. And I feel bad for the kid who is put in the position of having to listen to both parent and coach.

Don't even get me started on whether this sport needs cheerleaders pounding on the floor matside, much less even in the arena.
sorry, another thing...with digital cameras...why not have photos printed on cards that hang from a lanyard type thing? I could be asked at any time to produce that if Security wanted to check,...then I couldn't "borrow" someone else's, could I? It isn't a big expense to print a small picture on a business card size card stock, school, authorized job (coach, wrestler, AD, bloodworker, table worker, manager) and some "seal" graphic that varies from year to year.

Best thing they could do is clear the FLOOR in the break before Finals and re-admit only the team members, the competitors, etc. THAT would have gone a long way towards controlling things.
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