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In reading the State Body Minutes from the November meeting, I noticed that consideration was given to the idea of having full mats at the State Tournament. The proposal was to consider moving the 14-16 year old divisions into Exhibition Hall (I'm not really sure where that is). This would cost an additional $2,500 according to the minutes. This proposal was voted down by almost 2-1 (63-34).
It is disappointing that it was voted down by this 2-1 margin but it is also encouraging that it is being considered and does have some support. Hopefully the support will grow. It was also stated in the minutes that the split tournament idea was rejected by the majority since "the majority felt this is the final finale of the season and it should be ran in grand form".
Full mats at the State Tournament would certainly help achieve this grand form concept. I think they would also help things move faster which would address some of the issues that the people supporting the split tournament concept have. As far as the cost goes, it seems that it could possibly be covered in one of two ways either by raising the entry fee to $15 from the current $12 or by maybe allowing 6 and unders into the tournament.
I am really not in favor of six and unders in the tournament but I would be more supportive of it if we could do it and still have full mats for at least the 10 & unders on up. I think you could use the current smaller mats still for 6 & under and possibly even 8 & under.
It stated that there was "much discussion" about the proposed change to full mats before the vote was taken. It would be interesting to hear the pros and cons that were brought forth in the discussion.
Vince Nowak Kansas College Wrestling Fund Supporter Please join the fight with your contributions
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The exhibition hall is the connected building where we weigh in. That is where the older kids wrestled for Nationals and it worked great. My son wrestled in the main building and my nephew in the exhibit hall and I had no problem getting to both.
As for the discussion. Most of the discussion was for moving to full mats. It was even discussed that for the medal rounds all matches would be moved back into the main building. Then right before the vote some people were concerned about the seating in the exhibit hall as it is simply folding chairs. It was discussed this was exactly like nationals and it was fine and in fact with less people on top of each other it was better.
At the final vote however it was voted down easily. Which leaves us with the same issues. The crowding around mat 1 and 2 in the corner, and the small mat size for state level matches for the younger kids needs to be changed.
Some with older kids may dis-agree, but that's my opinion. I coach both the younger and older kids. I even talked with my nephew who is 16 and he could care less if they are in the exibit hall. His parents feel they actually could be closer to the action in the exhibit hall as they were at Nationals. It seems this is the classic example of resistance to change. Hopefully it will gain more support for next year.
In my son's 8u semi-final match last year. They were off the mat I bet 20 times. It was a joke. We were lucky enough that in the finals we wrestled on a full mat, but the 8U and 10U wrestle in kids all year. They deserve full mats at this level. I understand the 16u kids are much bigger and absolutely need full mats as well but not at the expense of the little kids that basically make kids wrestling. The 16u's come after high school and wrestle in the Wichita Classic and the state series. Accomidating them in the exibit hall would be no slant to them. And it would give the kids that have wrestled in the USA program for 4 months the format they deserve.
Again, just my opinion. All I would ask is if you have not been down to "the corner" by mats 1 and 2 because your kids have gotten older. Look or walk down there this year. My son moves to 10U and hopefully we are fortunate enough again to struggle with the small mat size for many more matches this year. Mats 3 and 4 are a little bigger. But the issue remains especially for the kids on mats 1 and 2. There should be a way to accomidate all. And the quality of the wrestling and the fairness to all kids should be the first concern. If we as coaches or parents have to walk a little more so be it. It was even discussed to give a extra "exhibit hall only" coaches pass since the passes are limited so as to not put undue strain on any clubs. Obviously none of the this was approved.
Good luck to all this year.
Twister
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I too was shocked by the outcome of the vote. Nearly all of the discussion was in favor of full size mats. The existing arrangement is not fair or safe to the younger wrestlers. As Twister mentioned, the stoppages become excessive and the number of times an official takes his eyes off of the action to check the adjacent wrestlers or position of the adjacent official is not acceptable.
The majority of the funds come from the 8&under and 10&under categories so they deserve to have a full size mat, safe boundries, and the full attention of their official. Everyone who wants full size mats needs to support the change with their club director so that the majority of votes will decide to make the change that is needed.
Will Cokeley (708)267-6615 willcokeley@gmail.com
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Im sorry but I must disagree with this. From my experience of wrestling for 15 years, coaching and officiating the last 3, I don't think its absolutly neccasary to have full mats for all age groups. As far as the crowding problem goes that is a problem with the way coaches and wrestlers are allowed onto the floor and its impossible to change that. Too many coaches just stand down on the floor as do wrestlers and crowd the mats. As far as full mats are concerned when I wrestled in kids, mat size wasn't an issue I made due with what was given to me. But I know I would have hated wrestling in exibition hall. To come all the way to the state tournament and then get put into a smaller room that resembles the wichita classic is not exactly my idea of a great experience. I say keep state the way it is. Im proud of the way Greg, Leanna, Gonz, Randy, and all the others run the state tournament and I hope they don't change a thing.
William Nigel Isom Officials Director (USAWKS) KSHSAA #14274 USAWKS #577 Riley KS
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Twister and Will, I appreciate your update on how the discussion went at the meeting. Nigel, I also appreciate your input because I do also want to hear the other point of view.
Twister I agree that the older kids and their parents would for the most part not mind wrestling in the exhibit hall away from the arena. The fact of the matter is that they are probably used to it and probably prefer it by the time they get to State. I know that my son last year in his first year at 12 & under at a bigger weight 120 was often in the smaller gym. As parents we really liked it because we were away from the more crowded main gym and we were closer to the action like you mentioned. My son really liked being on the full mats that were often utilized in some of these smaller gyms. I also think he enjoyed kind of being in the older big kid gym. If Jacob is fortunate enough to qualify for State again this year in his last year of twelve and under, this will be the fifth year that he has been at State in the main arena, as a family we would be more than willing to then give others the chance to enjoy the full mats and larger seating area in the arena and we could then enjoy the full mats and folding chairs closer to the action in Exhibition Hall.
Will, last April when this issue was discussed immediately after the tournament you listed three items that you saw as to why we should go to full mats at the State Tournament: 1) Safety 2)Fewer out of bounds situations 3) more consistency in officials judgement As I mentioned back in April, I watched a referee from the next mat several times being sprawled out on my son's mat. One time the adajecent mat referee was on his belly with over half his body sprawled out on my son's mat while he was trying to determine if a pin was taking place. The wrestlers on my son's mat who were fighting hard for a takedown could have been injured in this situation.
Nigel, you state that when you were a kid smaller mats were not an issue with you and that you made due with what was given to you but you would have hated wrestling in exhibition hall. This seems to be a little bit of a contradictory statement to me. It seems if you were the type to accept what was given to you with smaller mats that you would also have accepted wrestling away from the main arena. No one is saying that we are not appreciative of the hard work done by the State tournament officials. Actually, Greg Grater did the study and brought the proposal up at the meeting according to the minutes. It is to his credit that he was looking into the possibility of improving the tournament. Sometimes change can be for the good.
Personally, I think the bottom line is that most people prefer full mats. This is the State Tournament. The kids deserve the best at this tournament. Full mats would help make it the best. I know that we have been a little spoiled by them in District 1 since we have experienced them during the year at the Johnson County Classic, at Subs in Pittsburg, and for the older kids in the smaller gyms at some of the tournaments that utilize two wrestling rooms and full mats in them.
Vince Nowak Kansas College Wrestling Fund Supporter Please join the fight with your contributions
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Vince, I agree with most of your post with the exception of the statement "most people prefer full mats". If this were true more people/clubs would have taken the opportunity to voice that opinion at the district/state meetings and the proposal wouldn't have been defeated so soundly. I know in District 2, with much dismay on my part, we voted down the opportunity to wrestle on larger mats at our qualifiers.
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Amen to what Twister posted on this subject. This is one area where change can be beneficial. Although CHANGE can be a hard pill to swallow, ... Being open to new ideas to improve the State experience by creating more optimal conditions for wrestlers and fans and to smooth the operation of overall tourney for officials and tournament directors will benefit all. We should also be open minded to possibility of adding 6&U membership to State and the split format. It may never come to pass yet those who are merely adament traditionalist should be willing to at least listen with an open mind rather than just saying this is how it's always worked. The fact is, Kansas Wrestling I'm proud to say, is becoming ever more popular amongst our youth and the college talent we've produced of late is a tribute to that fact. The same way it was hard for me to accept change from typical 8 or 16 man bracket High School Tourneys and common tri-angular or dual formats and Dual State Tourney proposal, you have to ultimately ask what is most beneficial to wrestlers, coaches, teams, fans, and overall success of Kansas wrestling. It used to be that 25-30 matches was a good # in my days of wrestling (80's). I really feel that seeing the H.S. kids getting 4-5 matches in a day or 40-45 matches a year allows them that much more mat time to improve their performance in most cases by end of year or by time they are upperclassmen as they've had so much more mat-time competition experience. In the same way these changes have been helpful, there are also ways to help move our Kids programs forward if we will only be OPEN-MINDED and WILLING to some change. Kevin Calhoon Atchison, KS
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I too agree that the full mat and the split tournament format is the way to go. This is a discussion we voiced many times last year and while many people supported the idea, there was always a couple who said "That is just how it is." I understand "that is just how it is", but that does not mean we can not make a change. Life is about change. Just because people want to make a change does not mean that the current way something is being done is wrong, it just means this is a way it can be improved. I don't see how cutting wrestlers time waiting around to wrestle by 1/2 day and giving them full mats would not be an improvement. People say you will still have some people who will be there all day, true, but what is that percentage, 5 or 10%? This would help out on the over-crowding mat side and the shortage of seating we have experienced in the past. I don't know if the problem is while many of us want a change, not many of us are getting involved in the action to make a change or maybe it is the attitude of "That is just how it is."
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One middle of the road adjustment that would be easy, no cost, and interesting to see the results of would be to simply number the mats from the other end. This would basically just "flip" the mat configuration numbering. It would not fix the small mat size for the younger kids, but it would put them on that end that has much more floor space.
That way we could see if the congestion is due to the following associated with younger kids. (which I believe it is to some degree).
In addition if they would just take the start lines and move them 90 degrees so they are the lengthwise it would help a bunch. There is currently only about 5 feet behind the wrestlers when they start on mats 1 and 2. I understand the argument that the refs must face the table, but I was a referee for several years and looking slightly sideways to check the table before you start should be no issue. After the start you are at all angles with the table anyway to call the action.
Again just my opinion, Nigel and others are completely entitled to theirs. And these changes would not cost a thing or put anyone in the exhibit hall. I still would vote putting all on full mats as in my previous post, but we all need to be open to compromise to do what is best for all.
Twister
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Once again both of these suggestions seem to be very well thought out and are definitely worth looking at. There is nothing that says that if something does not prove to be a better way than we can always change back the next year. I personally would like to see a trial run at some of these suggestions. As wrestling parents so stated, just because a quorum of 123 club directors think there should not be any variation from the norm (again, this is the voting process and the way to go about change because it is a majority of CLUB DIRECTORS {though perhaps not necessarily view of majority of USAW-KS entire make-up}) than it is decidedly so that ALL IS GOOD !! RIGHT !!! Why not have a panel to study certain issues and work out best proposals and pros and cons on issues to be presented to club directors next year or maybe even better yet, have some of these proposals out there either via this website or in a membership pack available to club parents in a packet for State sign-up after District and have them check what they would prefer. There could be a monitoring table with according to USAW member # allowed 1 vote to be turned in either that day or have signed and notorized at voter expense to be turned in at State. This would allow a more broad and truer sense of USAW-KS feedback. It seems even Mr. Grater has been willing to bring proposals to consider, but without allowing MEMBERS also feedback and actually being able to look at these prior to Salina meeting, a Club director (hopefully willing to listen to his club constituents) does not have a TRUE vote. Just a small suggestion that perhaps someone can tweak a little more for a more fair proposal process which is most definitely NEEDED.
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sportsfan02, I see your point. I was thinking of it that if you just put the question to someone if they prefer full mats or smaller mats that of course most people would say full mats.
I do agree also though with what kahuna has suggested that if you took a vote of the entire USAW-KS membership that you would probably get a very different result than the vote taken at the State Body meeting this Fall. It is an unfortunate thing but you could probably have 75% or more of the club parents and wrestlers in support of some issue such as this one but your club might not vote that way if your club representative feels different.
Vince Nowak Kansas College Wrestling Fund Supporter Please join the fight with your contributions
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Let me first start off my saying I will not be coaching this year because my girl friend is pregnant and due in march, and I didnt feel it would be fair to me or the kids if I were to coach clear up to the state series and then not be there for them at the time of the state series. However, I will say from coaching and wrestling in the past at the state tourament I wouldnt mind seeing the older kids in exhibt hall. Many of you probably saw that coming from me because of my thought of split state. I agree with the number of arguments about going out of bounds, less matches per mat and all that getting the kids going faster. Twister-with your thought about changing the direction of the lines I dont like that idea more than once I have saw repeated stand ups where the child goes straight forward five or six steps with their normal motion which changing the lines would put those steps taking the children out of bounds.
Jeremy
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Just curious to know what others thoughts are on this discussion topic ??
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... just my 2 cents worth! Flipping the configuration of the mats (i.e. starting the 8 and unders at the other end of the building) has been tried in a few years ago. But, it caused a lot of congestion in front of the head table. I believe the PTB (powers that be) are going to try to ease the problem at the 8U end by sliding them away from the tunnel end. As for changing the position of the starting blocks, (No, I am not picking on you Twister  ) Jrob pointed out one problem but the other is the position of the starting block in relationship to the scoring table. The referee should be able to face the table. Generally, most of these suggestions have been brought before! That is not said to discount them but said to point out that the PTB have heard them. But they SHOULD be brought again if you feel they are worthy. While the adage, "if it's not broke, don't fix it" comes to mind, that is not what I think needs to be done. Most people and entities are resistive to change. But they generally tolerate a bit of tweaking! And the PTB and the STATE BODY may accept that. If you are proposing BIG changes to the State Tourney, like a split format or full mats for all, I believe that may be a tough pill to swallow for not only the PTB but as we saw in the State Body Meeting, the majority of our clubs! I have not been with Kansas wrestling as long as others but I have seen small changes made to the way we do business! Once in awhile they are reversed and returned to the status quo … but usually, the well thought out and the well conceived, stick. Rarely, does change occur quickly! Anyway, that’s my 2 cents worth!
Are you making a POSITIVE difference in the life of kids?
Randy Hinderliter USAW Kansas KWCA Rep/Coaches Liaison Ottawa University Volunteer Assistant
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Thanks for your response Randy. It helps to hear the flip side of these suggestions and good to see PTB are open to suggestions at least, as you stated. Some well thought out tweaking here and there doesn't have to mean something is broke, and some healthy disccussion can't hurt. By the way, I'm sure our body(USAW-KS) recognizes that much credit DOES have to be given to those who run the tourney for their dedication and service to our organization.
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Randy,
There is no doubt a great deal of truth to the adage "if it's not broke, don't fix it". The State Tournament is a long way from being broke. It is a very good tournament. The people who run it do an excellent job.
Could it be better? I believe it could if it was like the Subs at Pittsburg with full mats being used for more age groups. I am sure you were at Pittsburg the last two years and you remember all the positive remarks about the full mat experience that people were making last year about those full mats. Ideally the State Tournament should be the one tournament that the kids have the absolute best wrestling conditions. Full mats at State would be a major step in providing the kids that type of experience.
I understand the logic of your statements concerning the fact that the powers that be and the State Body would be slow to accept big changes like this and would be more receptive to smaller changes. But wouldn't you agree that sometimes Big Changes might be what are really needed for very positive changes in any institution. I know that most big institutions are slow to change. Everyone knows that, but I can also think of some examples in my lifetime of individuals who have found ways to somehow make big changes happen in big institutions.
I realize that this would probably take a long time to get the State Body to accept this type of big change. In fact with a 2-1 margin maybe they will never make the change. But I guess I find it encouraging that it was not a bigger margin like 4 or 5 to 1. It did have some support both in the vote and evidently in the discussion before the vote. I also find it very encouraging that our leaders considered it and brought it up for discussion.
I think wrestling is a great sport. I believe it is the best character building sport out there for our young kids. I believe it should be more popular, at least in the Kansas City area that I live in. It bothers me that I can hardly find any coverage of wrestling events in the Kansas City Star but yet we have detailed box scores on every high school boys and girls basketball games. We have great football teams in this area. They win all kinds of state football titles in both Kansas and Missouri. It seems that more of these kids should be wrestling. I read about how college programs are closing. I see it all interrelated. It just seems that wrestling is not as popular as it should be and I do not understand why. I guess it is for that reason alone that I believe maybe some Big Changes might start to change that.
Vince Nowak Kansas College Wrestling Fund Supporter Please join the fight with your contributions
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... YES, I do agree that "full mats at State" would be a tremendous benefit. Those benefits have been outlined in previous posts. Do I think that the benefit would be overshadowed by other factors: i.e. either increasing costs to rent the exhibition hall or elimination of the 16U's? Yes, I do! But, it is still a worthwhile goal that maybe in the future, could be implemented.
As for the media supporting wrestling … that is another can of worms completely! Media relations, is an area that is covered in our Bronze clinics. In the clinics in which I am a part of, we spend a great deal of time emphasizing how the coach, the club director, or their designee must put forth some serious effort, getting the media involved. Our local paper does a decent job covering our team. Why? Because the articles are written for them!
Vince, Jeremy, Randy S, Kevin, and others; Keep on challenging the status quo! Keep on bringing forth ideas that you think will improve … not only the State tournament, but wrestling as a whole. Kansas Wrestling is well known throughout USA Wrestling as a model state. Others are very envious of what we do and what we offer. Should we rest on our laurels? Absolutely NOT! It will be your ideas, and those of others, that will keep us there.
Are you making a POSITIVE difference in the life of kids?
Randy Hinderliter USAW Kansas KWCA Rep/Coaches Liaison Ottawa University Volunteer Assistant
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