Wrestling Talk Forums supported
USA Wrestling Kansas KWCA
Wrestling Talk Forums supported & maintained by USA Wrestling-Kansas
USAW USA Wrestling Kansas
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 171
J
Member
Member
J Offline
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 171
Needing your support!

With the District and State Body Meetings fast approaching I wanted to share one proposal that will be offered in Salina this year. We have visited about these issues several times on this forum: “Wrestling Up”, “Wrestling up in Age”, and “Changing KS rules RE wrestling up & double dipping”. As it stands currently, a wrestler may not wrestle up in age or enter two brackets (different age divisions) within the same session. Only when a split tourney is being utilized and with the tournament director’s permission and the combining of brackets may they enter up in age. Never are they allowed to enter twice (double dip). This is contrary to OK’s rules and for the reason listed below I find it less opportunistic for our wrestlers whom want to better themselves. Here are my reasons for voting yes on these proposed bylaw amendments regarding wrestling up and double dipping. Also worth noting, these proposals would not affect qualifying tournaments or the ability to wrestle multiple weights in the same age bracket in one session.

• The choice to better oneself should be up to the wrestler, parent & coach. Why would we want to limit the opportunity to get better?

• This isn’t forcing anyone to do something they don’t want to do, but allows those that wish to a better and easier way to do it.

• Travel and time commitments
o In today’s tough times, justifying a long drive, the expense, and time commitment for possibly only a couple of matches is tough to do for many. Why not make it worth their time and money to be allowed to enter twice making the most of the day, their money and most of all, their wrestler’s experience.

• Receiving permission from the tournament director.
o While I think it is important for the tournament director to have control over their tournament I also know how much they have on their plate come tournament time. Instead of having to burden the director and ask for permission I would suggest if a tournament director wishes not to permit double dipping or wrestling up they opt out on their flyer informing everyone prior to signing up. Given the reason below I can’t understand why they would do it.
o Revenue and space requirements – While this change isn’t driven by money it however brings another positive to the table. This change will provide additional revenue for clubs and great competition without increasing the number in the stands!
o Attracts great talent – Over the years we have had several teams attend Derby’s tournament from OK. One of the things they continue to ask is if their wrestlers can double dip. Last year we utilized the spilt format to try to accommodate the best we could but ultimately had to make the decision what age groups we split it at. With these changes I would argue you could attract great wrestlers from further away enhancing your tournament’s reputation.

• Works both ways
o Not realizing the true impact of this proposed change when I brought it up last year, it is becoming even clearer this year for this reason. My son will be at the bottom of 12 this year and unfortunately he will also be at one of the lowest weight classes. Considering past years and the limited number of participants from week to week in this age/weight class it opens the opportunity to see quality kids from 10 under moving up. Tanner would much prefer to wrestle tough kids from 10 under (several whom are better) than to have to wrestle the same 2 kids every weekend in a round robin.

I realize that there may be a couple of quirks about permitting this including, what happens when they are up on both mats. Again keeping the reason behind this change, allowing kids to get better, in mind I would hope both coaches, wrestlers, parents and tournament staff would be accommodating. However, when push comes to shove and the rules need to be enforced, so be it. Should you not be able to make the 2 minute allotted time requirement then you would forfeit the match and be moved to the backside. (not necessary a bad thing as it will only provide additional matches). Agreeing with Doug in a previous post, those that wish to challenge themselves aren’t doing this to get the award; they probably already have a drawer full.

Finally, I know that there is a discussion regarding 14 unders and the new high school division. This amendment along with that one will need to mesh in order to accomplish both goals. Please consider the positive effects of this change when you meet at your district meeting and in Salina for the state body meeting. Any concerns or questions, please post here so if need be we can tweak the amendment prior to the state meeting and ensure its approval.

Thanks!

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 524
L
Member
Member
L Offline
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 524
How about 1-1/2 minute rounds for 10u. Will you vote on this?


Lazy hands make for poverty,
but diligent hands bring wealth.
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,933
S
Member
Member
S Offline
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,933
"Additional and/or combined age and weight classes can be used at the option of the host tournament director."

I have maintained in the past that this by-law makes it possible already for someone to wrestle up in an invitational at the discreation of the tournament director.


Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 171
J
Member
Member
J Offline
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 171
While this is true, my proposal eliminates a possible burden for the tournament director. Also, this does not allow for double dipping in the same session.

Just an easier and cleaner way to accomplish the goal.

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,933
S
Member
Member
S Offline
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,933
I think you will find double dipping harder to pass for the possible delays it can cause at a tournament among other things. Often times the more changes you attempt in one swoop the more likely to find people voting against you for different reasons on different issues.
To me, the real issue is and has been, should we allow wrestlers to wrestle up in qualfiers and at state?


Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 171
J
Member
Member
J Offline
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 171
I hope you are wrong in that. I believe our members will see the value in both proposals and not limit their voting solely based on the fact there are multiple proposals. However, another reason for posting this this early is to find out exactly those concerns and if necessary prepare an amendment to the motion prior to the meeting. As far as the possible delays that could be caused; I can’t imagine, given the number that will opt to do this, as a huge problem. Bottom line, enforcing the 2 minute rule will avoid a lengthy delay if the wrestlers can’t be accommodated for in the first place.

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 3,101
D
Member
Member
D Offline
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 3,101
I believe it also should be up to the tourney director to walk to the table and tell them to skip the match, and wrestle it a few minutes later, so that noone has to forfeit any match. We've done it many times in OK, both to help a kid get mat time, and others have done it to get us mat time. It doesn't hold up the tourney a bit, as wrestling is not brought to a stand still, same number of matches, just a few that are out of numerical order.

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 937
BLT Offline
Member
Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 937
Just a question:
If wrestler A reports to the mat ready to wrestle & wrestler B has chose to wrestle in 2 classes, then should they be granted the right to wait for rest. I can understand if its a bracketing issue.
But if he chose to step up for more mat time then why should wrestler A have to stop & then rewarm up & ect. ect.
Just an FYI...
I am all for wrestling up! At some of the bigger & smaller weights it stinks to onlt have the same 2 or 3 kids week in & week out!!
Just trying to look at both sides!

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 171
J
Member
Member
J Offline
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 171
BLT, great question and my answer would be if they wish to have the 2 minute rule enforced and choose not to accomodate the other wrestler than so be it. I would agree it would not be fair for them to have to re-warm up but I would also say 99% of those that understand this sport and the long term goal will think twice. However to respect the other 1% the 2 minute rule will need to be enforced. Double dip knowing the risk!

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,933
S
Member
Member
S Offline
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,933
So we would be abandoning the rest period time rule all together?
That also would have to be addressed in any double dipping rule change.


Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 171
J
Member
Member
J Offline
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 171
Greg, no it wouldn’t be my recommendation to abandon the rest rule but hope it could be interpreted where contestant = entry (rule applies to that bracket only, not across entries). If this isn’t doable then we tweak that as well.

Quick question. Is there anyone out there that would double dip and request their 30 minutes? Is there anyone out there that would be adamant about enforcing the 2 minute rule? Greg, would you do either of these? I know we need to plan for the worse but am intrigued by the thought process of an individual that would demand this.

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,555
Member
Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,555
My thoughts on the wrestler that double dips, if matches come up at the same time. They wrestle whichever match comes up first. Immediately following that match, they wrestle the next one. I don't think the 2 minute rule or 30 minutes between matches should apply to a double dipper. I do think that Double Dipping should be allowed.

Last edited by Beeson; 10/09/09 02:34 PM.

Unnecessary Roughness is Necessary
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 649
Member
Member
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 649
We have been to several tournaments in MO that allow "double dipping" but only if you are in split session and it's different sessions. Did wrestle in a couple that were in the same session, and you wrestle when called, you waive the rest rule and you have the same time to report as any other wrestler. So if you are up at the same time you better pin the first kid or you might have to forfeit the other.

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,933
S
Member
Member
S Offline
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,933
Originally Posted By: Jeff Smith
Is there anyone out there that would be adamant about enforcing the 2 minute rule?

It has been my experience that every tournament goes by this rule except in out of the ordinary circumstances.
The split tournaments were created to speed up tournaments so parents and wrestlers were not there daylight to dark. Anything that we do that hurts that effort and goal, is counter productive to getting more kids to wrestle.
It is a common problem of most sports that the people most heavily involved tend to try change things for the betterment of the elite athletes. I take a different tact, I like to see things geared towards the average kid with the idea that the elite will prosper regardless.
With the split tournaments I think some of the want to "double-dip" is eliminated with the possibility that a kid can wrestle in the morning session and the afternoon. As long as they are ABLE to wrestle up in age. I do not consider that double-dipping in the true sense of the word.
I really get confused anyway why we concern ourselves with rules for Kansas kids when thinking about the elite athlete. If we are to listen to some on this board you can only get better by chasing medals and trophies beyond our borders. So maybe 25% of our best wrestlers are not going to be wrestling here on any given weekend anyway?
I say work on getting the rule changed about wrestling up one age group for invitationals and qualifiers and leave the rest alone for right now.
Remember, the Constitution and By-laws is not meant to be written on a chalk board where they can be easily changed. If that were the case then the guy coming right behind you could easily change it to something for the worse.


Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 211
Member
Member
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 211
Being allowed to officially double dip would be nice - especially if you are at either end of the weight class. I can remember several tournamets where we traveled 2 1/2 to 3 hours only to find there was just one other kid in Jake's bracket. Most of the tournament directors tried to get him additional matches if we asked but there were times when the rule was enforced (or possibly it would have just created too much of a headache on the brackets).

Last edited by Sudawn Bradley; 10/09/09 05:50 PM. Reason: grammer
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 171
J
Member
Member
J Offline
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 171


"If we are to listen to some on this board you can only get better by chasing medals and trophies beyond our borders. So maybe 25% of our best wrestlers are not going to be wrestling here on any given weekend anyway?"




Greg, I think this is an unfair statement. I think those at this level are traveling to better themselves 1st and foremost with a long term goal in mind; the medals and trophies are the icing on the cake.

Split tounaments are a great addition to KS wrestling but not all touneys opt to utilize this format. By having the choice to double dip helps when a spilt tourney isn't available. I can respect your stance on looking after the average wrestler however I can't understand how by having this choice is hurting anyone including the average wrestler. It is a choice that should be up to the wrestler.

I would also agree that the bylaws aren't meant to be easly changed however they are open to change with a 2/3 vote by the members. That in its self provides a level of protection.

My question to you still stands? If your wrestler faced a double dipper would you insist on the enforcement of the 2 minute rule? Also if you would, how would you vote on this motion?

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 211
Member
Member
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 211
The only downside I can see is that someone might complain that thier child got "robbed" of a medal/placing because someone double dipped and was able to possibly place/win two brackets instead of one.

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,555
Member
Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,555
Originally Posted By: Sudawn Bradley
The only downside I can see is that someone might complain that thier child got "robbed" of a medal/placing because someone double dipped and was able to possibly place/win two brackets instead of one.


If they win their age division and the one above them...more power to them.


Unnecessary Roughness is Necessary
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 171
J
Member
Member
J Offline
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 171
In reference to Bradley's post.

Now that to me would be a good defintion of someone chasing a medal! Forget about the quality competition or at the very least the extra mat time! Good point though.

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,933
S
Member
Member
S Offline
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,933
Originally Posted By: Jeff Smith

If your wrestler faced a double dipper would you insist on the enforcement of the 2 minute rule? Also if you would, how would you vote on this motion?

My position on the 2 minute rule is that it should be enforced regardless. I don't care if it's a double dipper or not, you do not hold up the tournament for one wrestler. This is somewhat the same position I had several years ago when some tournaments were being held up to re-bracket due to a "large number of scratches". Once you start holding up tournaments, for any reason, then people (parents and coaches), come out of the woodwork to take advantage of that, to the inconvenience of everyone else. Our sport pays the price for such nonsense with lower numbers down the road. I talk to individuals every year who will not allow their kids to wrestle based on things that happened to them back in the late 80's and early 90's at tournaments. I try to explain that with the split tournaments it isn't like that anymore. Everytime I do that, someone figures out a way to hold up starting times in a different manner, be it extended weigh-ins, re-bracketing or Trackwrestling. I say whatever you have to do start as close to on time as possible and move it along.
If someone wants more difficult competition then move your wrestler up an age group. Also, something that nobody ever mentions is moving up a weight group, nothing wrong with that either. There are plenty of ways to improve your competition or challenge your wrestlers without traveling to Timbuktu.


Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 9 guests, and 0 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Super Admin, bvswwrestling, CoachFitzOS, Dluce, Shawn Russell
12,303 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums11
Topics36,091
Posts250,722
Members12,303
Most Online1,305
Mar 13th, 2025
Top Posters
usawks1 8,595
smokeycabin 6,248
Aaron Sweazy 5,262
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 8.0.0
(Release build 20240826)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 8.3.23 Page Time: 0.036s Queries: 55 (0.026s) Memory: 3.1336 MB (Peak: 3.5912 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2025-08-01 14:48:50 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS