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KWCA voted on this at the 2009 Regional Tourneys to take to Kansas Coaches Association (KCA) as a rule change for wrestling. The proposal was to waive the NATIONAL FEDERATION 5-match limit when the 6th match of the day was for placing: 3rd, 5th or 7th only in a 16-man bracketed tournament, ONLY.
This would not have allowed tourneys to grow and expand to have 6 duals in a day, 32-man brackets in a day, round robins that would have given 6 matches, etc. It only would allow the 6th match if it was for tournament placing.
It did not work its way through the heirarchy because it was a NFHS rule. KSHSAA made it clear that they would not make a state-wide change of a NFHS rule, other than the weigh-in rule. The coaches were told to try and get it changed at the NFHS level, however Kansas does not hold a voting status with this group because we don't follow the NFHS weigh-in and certification rules.
My question is, what is the downside to also changing the 5 match limit? We have already lost our voting status with NFHS.
***COACHES! Please post here and give your rationale if you are in FAVOR of the 5 match limit.
Last edited by Chief Renegade; 12/24/09 02:53 PM.
Eric Johnson
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This has been up for 3 hours, and SportiePants hasn't come up with a reason? No way is he in agreement with us on this?????!!!!!
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I posted this on one of the other threads as something to consider with the 5 match limit.
"Another expense you might want to consider is the officials. I know I have visited with some officials and they have said if we add another match to the limit, then we need to add $$$ to the officiating fee. More matches = more matches and a longer day for them also."
I know, some feel they are overpaid for the job they do, but I understand their feeling about the extra work for the same money.
You've been Coaching how long?
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The high school zebras get paid WAY more on a per match basis than Kids officials and there are many, many qualified, good quality officials waiting on Bowden's bench to break in. Maybe the market will drive some of the "good ole boys" who are WAY past their prime, off the mat. Although Coach Alley has a valid point, I cannot believe that they would need as much for a six match limit day as they would for two days?
I say increase the match limit and leave the pay the same. Let the list of those who feel they need more pay start on this stream and I say this will be the first place we look to not hire officials for the next event.
Will Cokeley (708)267-6615 willcokeley@gmail.com
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The 5 match limit usually only rears its ugly head on the backside (3rd or 5th) of a large tournament, in my experience. Also in my experience, the Championship matches (1st & 2nd) are normally held at the end of the tournament's schedule, after the consolation matches. By allowing an extra match or two to decide a true 3rd or 5th or whatever, you will be having officials stay longer. However, they are contracted through to the end of the tournament, so they will be there anyways. Why not wrestle those 6th matches (especially when one of the 5 matches was most likely a forfeit or default - no actual energy was expended in wrestling a live body). As far as pay goes, isn't everyone but professional athletes underpaid anyway?
"Praise the Lord, my Rock. He trains my hands 4 war & gives my fingers skill 4 battle."-Ps.144:1
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I dont know what officials get paid, but if they are doing it for the money they dont need to be out there anyway. I lose money during wrestling season missing work and what I get paid coaching sure doesnt come close to covering what I lose. With that being said anyone who is involved in the sport for money should get the hell out, you do this for the love of the sport not money. The kids should be able to wrestle any matches that involve their bracket I dont care how many matches it is. We are not going to destroy a young athletes body by wrestling 6 matches.
Jeremy Molloy Derby Wrestling
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At the Bishop Carrol tourney, it would have been 2 extra matches and I believe there were 4 officials. Is that too much to ask for them to do 2 extra matches at a tourney? Remember, MOST of the kids that get beat early are not going to make it all the way thru the back door to run into the problem of h aving to wrestle a 6th match. It's not like we'll have 14 weight classes, 2 m atches per weight, etc. etc. It is a very few matches. And the deeper into the year we get, and the seeding gets more accurate, we'll have less and less of it.
This boils down to KSHSAA making a rule that even they probably can't give a reason for. Power trip once again.
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KWCA voted on this at the 2009 Regional Tourneys to take to Kansas Coaches Association (KCA) as a rule change for wrestling. The proposal was to waive the NATIONAL FEDERATION 5-match limit when the 6th match of the day was for placing: 3rd, 5th or 7th only in a 16-man bracketed tournament, ONLY.
This would not have allowed tourneys to grow and expand to have 6 duals in a day, 32-man brackets in a day, round robins that would have given 6 matches, etc. It only would allow the 6th match if it was for tournament placing.
It did not work its way through the heirarchy because it was a NFHS rule. KSHSAA made it clear that they would not make a state-wide change of a NFHS rule, other than the weigh-in rule. The coaches were told to try and get it changed at the NFHS level, however Kansas does not hold a voting status with this group because we don't follow the NFHS weigh-in and certification rules.
My question is, what is the downside to also changing the 5 match limit? We have already lost our voting status with NFHS.
Eric Johnson
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What do you all think the limit should be? 6,7,8,9,10 ????
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I'm all for getting rid of the rule. The only question is what will we do with our out of state wrestlers at these tournaments. I am not sure that they would continue to come here for events. The easy responce is they can change too but we have no right to tell them how to run their state. When we go to Nebraska we abide by their rules(shoulder to shoulder weigh-ins),but telling a kid he can't wrestle for third when everyone else does would not be fun. Would be great to change this at the national level but it was easy, it would alreay be done.
Last edited by CoachBo; 12/24/09 02:50 PM. Reason: spelling
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Six. I also vote to continue allowing unlimited live wrestling in our practice rooms.
Eric Johnson
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I think you should be able to wrestle a 16 man bracket in one day, which would be 6 matches. I can't remember any Kansas high school tournaments that were 32 man brackets that were not two day tournaments anyway.
I also think that any limit should include only matches wrestled. It seems crazy to me to include byes/scratches in the count. My $.02
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"However many matches it takes" is the answer to "how many?
If someone wants to have the power to make a hard number, 6 would be all it takes. We could do regionals in one day, and all the 16 man brackets would be taken care of.
I don't think we need a limit, period, but 6 would probably get it.
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I think you should be able to wrestle a 16 man bracket in one day, which would be 6 matches. I can't remember any Kansas high school tournaments that were 32 man brackets that were not two day tournaments anyway.
I also think that any limit should include only matches wrestled. It seems crazy to me to include byes/scratches in the count. My $.02 Byes don't count now. Forfeits do.
Eric Johnson
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Well, then I got part of my wish.
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Since it is the holiday season, it just hit me that many of our officials are more physically equipped to be wearing red and white instead of black and white!
All I want for Christmas is a 6th match allowed (by the way I think MORE out of state teams would come to Kansas if they could get more mat time unless their state athletic (communist) group would forbid it), travel beyond the 500 mile limit for just one weekend a year (for Pete's sake, the band can do it!), and a REAL officials evaluation system. My list is much, much longer but I don't want to be greedy Santa!
Merry Christmas to all!
Will Cokeley (708)267-6615 willcokeley@gmail.com
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Santa is evaluating his records right now to see if you've been naughty or nice this year Will.
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I have no problem with the 5 match limit. I doubt I would have much problem with 6 either. I can pretty much promise that if a 6 match limit were enacted, fairly sure that very soon after people would want 7 matches and so on and so forth.
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There is no NEED for a seventh match. How often would that actually occur. With the proposal to allow the sixth match it is only in the instance where it is for placing, most likely a consolation match due to the tournament running a 16 man bracket. We run a 16-man bracket in our one day tourney and ran into the 5th match rule several times last year. It would be nice to actually wrestle the match and not have to split the team points, and let the wrestlers decide who gets the points and the medal. I don't see it as a ploy of "if we ask for six, maybe we can get seven." Not that way. I am in favor of the 6th match here but what if a kid gets hurt during that 6th match. Have we now fed the litigation monster?
"If it is to be, it is up to me!"
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What if he gets hurt the 1st match? That was a dumb point IMO.
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