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#4290 03/31/03 01:47 PM
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This is one of those posts I know I have to be careful about because I have a lot of friends in Oklahoma. There were several asking me about the difference between Oklahoma State Championships Verses Kansas State Championships. I hope the following comments help both states make for a better event for their wrestlers.

Oklahoma has the advantage in a couple of areas:
• The addition of a 6 and under or D1 division is needed at Kansas State. These kids wrestle all year and it would be great to give them the privilege of wrestling in the big show.
• I also like the option to challenge for 2nd. This allows one more match and the chance to see who legitimately deserves 2nd place. There needs to be head to head on a tournament of this level to determine legitimacy of 2nd place.
• I also like Oklahoma's format of 6 wrestlers from each district/region making it to the tournament, thus allowing a 24 man bracket.
• The hospitality room in Oklahoma is much better.
• Awards; in Oklahoma you receive a medal, trophy and the winner receives a sweat shirt with state champion on the back. I will say this though, the awards in Kansas were very nice and if it were all about trophies I would go out and buy my son one. The true award is knowing that you are a champion and have wrestled well.

Now some things that are about even:
• Officiating: The truth is that some officials are going to make mistakes and some are going to be great. All you can hope for is consistency and hope that they are enforcing a fair playing field.
• The quality of wrestlers: Again I love Oklahoma and lived there for 8 years, my son loves it and it is where he learned the sport. But the truth is that the quality of wrestling is just as good here as there, especially on the state level. I want to give kudos to the number of quality wrestlers in our bracket. Nathan had two very tough matches against Colt Rogers from Smith County and Darrin Stroot from the Brawlers. For all practical purposes, the match with Darrin literally changed with 17 seconds to go in the third period. I don't know young Rogers well, it is the first time wrestling him this year but he was a tough young man. I do know Darin and he, his father and Terry Cox are fine people and I know that Darin is as fine a wrestler as there is in this state.

Now to things better in Kansas:
• Organization and running of the tournament: I know many are complaining about this, but in Oklahoma, it was not unusual to arrive at 7:30 AM and not leave until 10:00 PM or even later, one year at 11:30 PM.
• The facility: Even though Oklahoma goes from OKC to Tulsa neither of those facilities are nearly as nice as the Topeka Expo Center. You can actually sit in the stands or stand around the barriers and watch a mat.
• Less trouble mat side: This is another one to not take lightly. I don't know what it is but there seemed to be far less confrontation and I personally did not observe the unsportsmanlike conduct on the whole that I have observed by a very few, not the overwhelming majority, in Oklahoma.
• The flow of the tournament, kids were generally ready to go once they were due up, there was very few calls made for wrestlers or coaches to show up at a mat.
• The table workers: They were well trained and seemed to be a few but not very many problems.
• Security: Real and professional, not friends wearing a vest.
• The time to wait for awards: We have literally never gotten away from Oklahoma before 11:00 PM awaiting the awards.

Overall, I was honestly surprised at the quality of this tournament. My son has won 2 Oklahoma State Championships and wrestled in numerous state tournaments there. He won his first Kansas State this weekend. I would have to say to the organizers of the Kansas State, I give you the strong advantage of the comparison. While there is room for improvement I believe that this was a fine tournament and one that the wrestling community of Kansas can to be proud of.

#4291 03/31/03 03:58 PM
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Ok just a few comments.

First it would be nice to add the 6&U age group to the state tournament however this adds to the time complexity issue that you were talking about.

I love the challenge idea I have always been in favor of this rule and I wish Kansas would add it.

There is no doubt who has the better hospitality room but this is due to the contract with the Expo center so there is not much that can be done there.

I don't think they need 24 man brackets, the tournament is already long enough and this would make it soooooo much longer.

I like the awards in Kansas, but if they could do something better like a sweatshirt that would be really cool too!

I've never been to the Oklahoma State championships but I've been to the Kansas champs at least 8 and its always been some of the best experiances of my life as a wrestler and now as a coach.


William Nigel Isom
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#4292 03/31/03 04:19 PM
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Mike,

I agree with Nigel on the 6 & under suggestion. It would add to the time problem with both length of day and wait between matches. I really believe we could still have a quality State tournament experience if we had shorter waits between matches and a shorter overall State tournament day. Have you seen what illegalhold has said about the State tournaments in California and Nebraska in the state split tournament topic? It would also probably mean smaller mats for even more age groups and weight classes. Don't you think all our 12 & unders and maybe even 10 & unders deserve a full mat at their State tournament? I know it would be great to include everyone but there has to be some limitations due to limited resources.


Vince Nowak
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#4293 03/31/03 04:43 PM
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Just a quick comment on 6&U at State. How many Kids tournaments during the season have a 16&U Bracket? How many Kids tournaments during the season have a 6&U Bracket? Never understood this issue. Anyone have insight??

#4294 03/31/03 06:00 PM
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One thought on the awards. I think it would be inexpensive and pretty cool that each placer get a KS sunflower logo to iron on their singlet. The champions could be slightly different. Just a small logo to signify their accomplishment.

#4295 03/31/03 06:38 PM
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Vince & others, The possibility of a 6 and under would not add any time if it were possible to use the room where weigh ins took place. I am sure there are expense issues here but could off set with entry fee's etc from the additional monies generated in attendance.

Regarding full mat's for 12 & under. I definitely agree that this would be nice. I don't know how many times I've seen kids loose points because of their speed and the size of the mat. I also believe that this takes up a lot of additional time for resets, although most all of the officials this weekend did a great job of getting the wrestlers back to the center of the mat.

The suggestions for the split state might have some value it would certainly be worth trying for a year or so and seeing how it turned out. I do believe that if possible it is important to do a combined championship session though.

I know that costs are the often-quoted prohibitive component of why things are not done, and understandably so. I do believe though that these types of things, patch, shirt, etc are worth finding ways to give the tournament winners, even if that means sponsorship style shirts, patches, whatever.

#4296 03/31/03 06:44 PM
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How about have 6&Under and 16&under on a different weekend so that the 8 & 10 under kids could wrestle on full size mats? How many times did you see a 10 year get to stand up just as the official was blowing the whistle for being out of bounds? We had full size mats at our subdistrict (THANKS PITTSBURG!)and it provided for less stopping and more wrestling.

I would side with those who feel we don't need to have a 16 & Under state at all. They already hand out 56 state championships in high school and all of these kids have that opportunity.

Congratulations to all of the kids who were at state and especially to those who placed. I know they all worked super hard to get there and those worked the hardest were rewarded.


Will Cokeley
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#4297 03/31/03 08:48 PM
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The 16 and under can provide some great matchups that we don't get to see during the high school season,this is probably the closest thing we are going to get to a grand state. Most kids can wrestle in 16 and under after their JR. year so some brackets are loaded.

Why would you want to do away with a chance for kids to have a competetive tournament?


"Stats are for losers. Final scores are for winners." Bill Belicheck
#4298 03/31/03 09:31 PM
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I for one am just happy to hear we are keeping up with Oklahoma! In fact, I get emotional just thinking about it!


#4299 03/31/03 10:29 PM
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I feel they need to cut the weights down at 16U. There are to many weights, use the high school weights and add the 6U weights and you would be fine. I know for a fact that we had 5 kids from our team walk to state at the 16U division. They walked their way to state, we had 1546 6U and 586 16U signed up, I think 6U has just a little bit more kids in it, why not let them wrestle at state like everone else. We want them to wrestle our regular tournaments why not let them wrestle state. I know everyone says they can wrestle 8U but thats not fair to a 5yr old kid. They worked just as hard as everyone else did the whole year let them join in on the fun at State.


Scott Biddle
#4300 04/02/03 11:36 PM
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BigPin,
I really don't want to "do away" with the 16&under tournament but I do feel it should be held either on a different weekend or at a different site so that the little guys get a chance to wrestle on full size mats and it is their tournament that they have worked hard all year to reach. The 16's have the high school tournament. I would imagine that any 16 would trade his 16&under medal for a KSHSAA medal regardless of the competition. The little guys deserve a weekend in the spotlight without sharing it with the high school boys.


Will Cokeley
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#4301 04/03/03 02:37 AM
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ditto

#4302 04/03/03 07:31 AM
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I must diagree. Despite the fact that many kids walk on to state in the 16&U bracket at least most of the matches are fun to watch. There are few matches in the 6&U bracket that interest me. At that age most of the kids don't know what they are doing and most of the match is filled with endless reversals. There was one match at the sub district that I was at that was fun to me. I that match a kid literally ran away from his opponent, then he actually ran in circles around his oppononet until he got behind him, it was the funniest match I have ever see. He took this kid down 3 times by just running around him, I think the opponent just got dizzy! Anyway I wouldn't be opposed to adding the 6&U to the state tournament but definatly don't take the 16&U away. One other suggestion I would like to add is maybe at the 14&U level and up they should switch all the weight to the 14 high school weight i.e 103, 112, 119. This way it won't take as much time, besides many people in the 14 and under bracket competed in middle school wrestling or are freshman in high school.


William Nigel Isom
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Riley KS
#4303 04/03/03 12:47 PM
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I am a afraid that I have to disagree with changing the weights in the 14 & under. There are alot of kids who wrestle up all through their Junior High season, some by as much as 20-30 pounds. Kids state is about the only place where they get an even playing field. Just my opinion.

#4304 04/03/03 02:28 PM
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And I repsect your opinion jayhawkmom, it was really just a suggestion. maybe the weight should stay the same maybe they shouldn't, I don't think any major changes are going to be made for the next few years so I wouldn't worry too much.


William Nigel Isom
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#4305 04/03/03 02:55 PM
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Nigel, I disagree with you on the 16 & under issue and I agree with Will. Just because the 16 & Under is more fun for an adult to watch doesn't mean that it should be included it in a grade school State championship tournament. As adults we have a lot of opportunity to go out and enjoy watching our high school wrestlers during their high school season. I do this and I take my son to those high school meets too. Next year we may go to the Maize youth tournament and then maybe attend the high schools finals in the afternoon.

You say it is fun for you to watch the 16 & unders. Well as a father of a 12 year old it would have been more fun for me to watch my son wrestle his State tournament matches on a big mat. I think most people are really only mostly paying attention to their child, their teammates around their child's age whom they practice with and their child's opponents. When my son was in 8 & under all I cared about was that group. I have expanded my interest some in six years but honestly my main focus is still on my son's group and the competitors and teammates around his age group.

To me this tournament consisted of about three different groups the young grade school kids, the older grade school kids and then the high school kids. Other than a couple of teammates that were outside of his age group, our focus was entirely on the older grade school kids that my son is a part of. It seemed liked the high school kids took up almost half the floor space. That means the grade school kids do not have enough floor space to have big mats, they have long waits between matches and they do not have enough room to warm up. I just think the grade school kids are entitled to more quality in their State tournament.

Like Will Cokeley, I think it would be great for our Kids State organization to offer a separate tournament at a different time and place for the high school kids. It could be a one or two age division tournament or possibly an A and B division to reflect junior varsity and varsity. If we had that then I believe it would be the closest thing we could come up with to a high school Grand State.


Vince Nowak
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#4306 04/03/03 03:53 PM
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I just don't agree with having a seperate tournament for kids this age. I mean are you going to organize all the volunteers? Are you going to take another weekend out of your schedule? Are you going to pay to rent the expocenter for another 2 days? - plan on about $20,000-$30,000. I think the 12 and unders do just fine on half a mat. What are they going to do with a whole mat? Anyway we will see what happens in the future but I doubt any significant change will happen.


William Nigel Isom
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#4307 04/03/03 04:18 PM
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Nigel, I can't tell you how many times I saw 12 to 13 year kids who make up the 12 & under division run themselves out of bounds and stop the action of the match. Many times crucial points were lost. I also saw the referee from the next mat several times sprawled out on his stomach on my son's mat with half of his body or more on my son's mat as he was determining whether a pin was taking place on his mat. This situation seemed somewhat dangerous to me for the wrestlers on my son's mat.

Am I going to organize and spend my time running the separate high school meet? No, I think those people such as yourself who really want to see these matches so much should do that. Personally I think it really isn't even needed. They have already had their high school season and tournament. Like I said I had already enjoyed watching them in their regular season. I agree with the KWCA suggestion in this year's minutes that our Kids season runs to long and as they said it should finish before the high school season does so the high school wrestlers can take a week or two off and then concentrate on freestyle as many chose to do.

I suggested a separate Kids high school tournament only as a better alternative than the current State tournament and the inferior situation for the grade school kids that it causes.


Vince Nowak
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#4308 04/03/03 04:34 PM
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I have checked into why the High School comes back and wrestles federation state when they just got done with theirs the answer is to get all the wrestling possible for Kansas kids to better themselves for College Wrestling. From what I have seen they have no intention of dropping High School kids.

Also one of the reasons of not moving kids State before High School State is availability of facilities due to Basketball taking up gym space. It is hard enough to find people to take on a Sub-District now much less if some of the gyms aren't available.

Furches do High Schoolers come back in Oklahoma? also adding more qualifiers from each district just adds to more time at the facilities and mostly poor wrestling that first round.

Six year olds have been discussed for years and voted done at the State meeting last year 70% to 30%.

#4309 04/03/03 06:04 PM
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Coachjt, the statement that "the answer it to get all the wrestling possible for Kansas kids to better themselves for College Wrestling" seems to me to be different than last Fall's minutes which stated:

"The KWCA had approached Mike and said that they would like to see the Kids wrestling season end earlier. They would like to see it end before High School State, take a couple weeks break, and then start the summer freestyle – Greco-roman season. They honestly feel we are going too long!! A brief decision followed, but it was decided to leave as is."

It appears that the first answer is from our organization and it does seem to be at odds with the KWCA's current position. It appears the KWCA feels their high school wrestlers would be better off preparing themselves for college by concentrating on Freestyle and Greco-Roman after the high school season is over.

As far as gym conflicts, I can see that could pose a problem for us finishing before the high school wrestling and basketball seasons. But Missouri finished two weeks before we did. I think that would be good and help some of the conflicts for the grade school kids who do other sports that have already started like track and baseball practice or maybe give families a little more of a break before they start the Spring and Summer sports seasons.

I don't know about Oklahoma, but I'm pretty sure they do not wrestle high school kids in the Missouri State Kids tournament after their season is over.

I really do not think a six and under division is needed at State. I don't think most of them are ready for or need the added pressure that it brings to the kids and their families. I know there are exceptions but not enough to justify adding a whole new age group to State.


Vince Nowak
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