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Originally Posted By: sportsfan02
Vince, I never said wrestling could or should be analyzed on the same criteria as those other sports. Because we have no Big 12 schools in this state it would be a little unfair to use that as the determinate factor. That is probably why the auditors chose to use the sports and conference they did, because it was the fairest and easiest way to determine a ranking. I will take our D-1 wrestling numbers vs any field given the same per 100,000 or whatever other criteria you choose to use. We will do just fine. Does that mean we shouldn't always being trying to improve? Well I think we all know the answer to that. The question is how!


I would agree that it is perhaps a little unfair to use Big 12 schools since we do not have any Big 12 schools with wrestling in Kansas. But wouldn't you also say it is unfair for the KSHSAA to use only a football and basketball only Big 12 analysis in its defense to show our their policies are working?

Also after doing this analysis of the Big 12 team rosters, I do not think that Kansas would come out fine in a D-1 number of wrestlers comparison against any field as you put it. If you put us in a field of just our neighboring states (Missouri, Nebraska, Oklahoma and Colorado), I think there is a good possibility that Kansas would come in last in the percentage per 100,000 and the 14 to 17 year old criteria. The main reason is due to the fact that all these states have D-1 schools and Kansas does not. Colorado has Northern Colorado and Air Force Academy. Air Force is a national school but it still has 3 Colorado wrestlers vs. one from Kansas. Northern Colorado has a lot of Colorado wrestlers on its roster and I believe one Kansas wrestler. Even if you took the entire nation, I don't think that Kansas would do that well in Division I. The reason for it in my opinion is that colleges do tend to have more in-state wrestlers percentage wise on their rosters than out of state wrestlers and Kansas just does not have any D-1 schools period. Now I don't think this really has anything to do with the KSHSAA's policies. I think this is primarily due to the fact that we have no Division I schools in Kansas. Kansas would no doubt fair better versus other states nationwide if you did an analysis of both Division 1 and Division 2 since we have Fort Hsys State and Newman in Division II.

Finally to give my opinions on your question of how do we improve the situation? In my opinion and my opinion on this is certainly not all inclusive and I would hope others would share their thoughts:

1. We need to get D-1 teams at Kansas, Kansas State and Wichita State. Or at least one of them.

2. We need to get more kids involved in freestyle/greco at earlier ages. My son has only done this Olympic style wrestling for two years his junior and senior years. After this year's junior duals he told me that he really wished he had started the Olympic styles earlier at least by his start of middle school (the 7th grade). Wrestling these styles improve wrestling on your feet skills and some defensive skills. Wrestling in the summer the Olympic styles gives you more competition during the year and against top competition especially if you get involved in schoolboy, cadet and junior duals and/or Fargo. Also a big key for landing on a D-1 team, you have greater exposure to D-1 recruiting at these national tournaments.

3. Allow high school coaches to develop quality long term programs by allowing them to manage and coach youth teams and by allowing high school coaches to coach their wrestlers year around in season and out of season. Do not limit the high school coaches ability to do that.

4. Even though I don't like this one, a one site all class state tournament would probably help some in making it easier for recruiters.

Those are some ideas that I have heard over the years that I think would help.



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Vince as I indicated, I don't care what sports were sampled, I think it all works out in the end as long as they use a fair comparison formula. The sports sampled are just an indicator of the overall health of all of our various high school sports. Even without a D-1 program in KS I will take our numbers. Of course our numbers would be even higher if we had a D-1 program.


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sportsfan02,

I do disagree with you that a study where only two sports football and basketball are sampled is a big enough sample to be a good indicator of the overall health of all our various high school sports. At best this study is just an indicator of the overall health of football and basketball in our state. I also have to say that just as you pointed out that my wrestling only comparison was not really fair due to the fact that there are no Big 12 wrestling teams in Kansas, it is also not fair to just use the Big 12 conference for the football and basketball study as an indicator for our state in comparison to other states since there are two Big 12 schools in Kansas while Missouri, Colorado, Iowa and Nebraska only have one Big 12 school.

The reason of course is as I pointed out earlier, the university teams normally have a very large percentage of in-state athletes on their rosters. In compiling that Big 12 information for wrestling and in looking at the Northern Colorado roster yesterday, it was very evident to me how true this is. No doubt many of these in-state wrestlers are walk ons due to the fact that it is less expensive for the in-state students to attend an in-state university. These walk ons have an opportunity to work their way into the starting lineup. It is a great opportunity that our Kansas high school wrestlers are denied at the D-1 level. I know my first suggestion on improving our D-1 wrestling numbers seems like an obvious but impossible task. I only mentioned it because while compiling those numbers for Big 12 wrestling it was really driven home to me just how much opportunity we are losing for our Kansas high school wrestlers by not having a Division 1 team in Kansas. And it was also driven home to me just how many our very best Kansas high school wrestlers are forced to leave Kansas to compete in wrestling at the D-1 level. I think all of us need to really financially support our Kansas college teams like Fort Hays State, Newman University, Baker University, Labette CC, Neosho County CC, Colby CC, Pratt CC and any other that I may have not mentioned. Go to their websites and contact their coaches on how and where to send them a contribution. Even small financial contributions of $25 or less will add up for them. I think if we support these teams with our dollars and our attendance at the events it will show other Kansas colleges that the Kansas wrestling community will support college wrestling in our state.

sportsfan02, I do not think that the KSHSAA is doing a bad job in regulating high school sports in Kansas. However, I do think that every organization has to be constantly willing to change for improvements for the people the organization serves. It has to create an environment that encourages change and not make change difficult. I have been involved with several profit and non for profit organizations and I have seen how organizations that make change easy and are willing to do so have had great success. I have also seen the opposite where an organization and its leaders refuse to change and make change difficult. I have seen these organizations go down hill and some ultimately fail. I think Kansas high school wrestling is in pretty good shape but I also think it can improve. I think there are certain changes that would increase the chances for improvement of Kansas high school wrestling. I think some of these changes would have to be initiated thru the KSHSAA. How easy is it to effect change thru the KSHSAA and do they have a system set that makes change easy to occur?


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Vince,

" . . . I do not think it is correct for the KSHSAA to use only football and basketball in the Big 12 to support a position that their current policies are fine and do not need changing."

the KSHSAA did NOT select that comparison, it was selected by the Legislative Post Audit and I do not think it was being cited as proof that the KSHSAA rules do not need to be changed. In fact, the tone of the audit was, in my opinion, very negative towards the KSHSAA even though the survey numbers were very favorable to the KSHSAA.

The number of Kansas athletes on FB & BB rosters in the Big 12 is, admittedly, a very narrow comparison based on a limited sample. However, FB and B & G BB are the only sports (a) in which EVERY Big 12 school fields a varsity team; and (b) of which Rivals.com maintains roster information. I am pretty sure every Big 12 school fields B & G Track & Field, but Rivals.com does not maintain roster info on them. Why was Rivals.com selected? Not 100% positive, but am assuming they were seen as being an impartial and accurate outside source for information on athletic participation in the Big 12.

Again, the KSHSAA did not provide that number/statistic nor was the number/statistic being used to say the KSHSAA is perfect as it is. I think the point being made by citing the number/statistic is while there is a big difference of opinion as to whether the KSHSAA hinders or helps athletic development in Kansas High Schools, it (KSHSAA) must be doing something right or in the least doing no harm, at least in this limited example.


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". . . But wouldn't you also say it is unfair for the KSHSAA to use only a football and basketball only Big 12 analysis in its defense to show our their policies are working?"

". . . I do not think it is correct for the KSHSAA to use only football and basketball in the Big 12 to support a position that their current policies are fine and do not need changing."


The comparison was NOT the work of the KSHSAA; it was the Legislative Post Audit who came up with that comparison.


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Greg:

I appreciate the correction on the KSHSAA being the ones to use the number as a comparison point in the audit. I understand what you are saying. At this point I would have to say I really don't understand why the auditors would have even brought this study up in their report. In my opinion it has very little if anything to do with how well Kansas high school athletes are doing compared to the other states high school athletes in the study. It seemed to me that it was presented as some evidence in the report that Kansas was doing pretty well compared to these other states and I think it is not a good conclusion.

The way the comparison came out still does not make sense to me because logically I would seriously doubt a comparison where Kansas comes out so far ahead of Texas in a study that is so heavily weighted to football participant numbers. Texas is known nationwide for being one of the top football recruiting states in the country and I don't think Kansas is nationally recognized as a top state for high school football recruits. I think this study makes an invalid comparison because Kansas basically has an in-state ratio of a little over 1,400,000 people per Big 12 school in Kansas while for Texas there are over 6,000,000 people per Big 12 school in Texas (there are 4 in Texas). For Texas to have close to the same 1,400,000 ratio there would need to be at least 16 Texas D-1 schools in the study. This is important in my opinion because I can see how heavily weighted the college teams are with in state athletes. Perhaps my reasoning is incorrect but it makes far more sense to me from what I know about Texas high school football. By the way Kansas with that 1,400,000 people per Big 12 school is the lowest number of all the states in the report.



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Several ways to look at it and the LPA chose this perspective. Whether you agree/believe is beside the point; it is what it is. The numbers, based on the comparison used by the LPA don't lie. As I pointed out in one of my earlier posts on this subjecgt, having two Big 12 football schools in a state our size will give us an advantage in this comparison.

In regards to Texas, don't forget there are numberous D-1 schools in their state (just 4 B12 schools) BUT Texas also "exports" a lot of high school football talent to other B12 schools--look at the rosters at OU,O-State, etc.

Does it prove that the KSHSAA is a positive in HS FB & BB? Would be hard to argue they are; at the least one could argue no harm is being done in those sports.

Lots in the audit to agree/disagree with--on both sides of the issue.


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I'm not going to beleaguer the point any more except to say that I can show you studies that say we are one of the top football states in the nation. Whenever the studies are weighted by population the state of Kansas typically does pretty well. Another important item is if you look at the states we think of as being powerhouses in high school sports you will find often they are at the bottom of the rankings for academics.


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Originally Posted By: sportsfan02
I'm not going to beleaguer the point any more except to say that I can show you studies that say we are one of the top football states in the nation. Whenever the studies are weighted by population the state of Kansas typically does pretty well. Another important item is if you look at the states we think of as being powerhouses in high school sports you will find often they are at the bottom of the rankings for academics.


sportsfan02, I have definitely gone overboard with this and I will soon end my posting on the topic. I would however really like to read these studies that show that Kansas is one of the top football states in the nation. My instinct tells me that Texas would be ahead of Kansas per capita in producing D-1 football players nationwide in all conferences but I would not mind be proven incorrect on that. So I would appreciate if you could share those studies with us.


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Originally Posted By: GregMann
Several ways to look at it and the LPA chose this perspective. Whether you agree/believe is beside the point; it is what it is. The numbers, based on the comparison used by the LPA don't lie. As I pointed out in one of my earlier posts on this subjecgt, having two Big 12 football schools in a state our size will give us an advantage in this comparison...Does it prove that the KSHSAA is a positive in HS FB & BB? Would be hard to argue they are; at the least one could argue no harm is being done in those sports...


Greg Mann:

The numbers in the study may not lie but they can mislead a person to an incorrect conclusion. If the basis of a study is too narrow and gives some subjects of the study advantages over other subjects of the study then the study and its conclusions are not revelant. If you believe the report gives Kansas an advantage since its has two Big 12 schools with our lower population base than how can you even draw the conclusion from the report that?

Quote:
at the least one could argue no harm is being done in those sports


And I am not saying that KSHSAA policies are harming us in producing Division I athletes in football and/or basketball. I am just saying that conclusion cannot be reached from this particular study and information.

I really try to question studies and financial numbers when they are presented to me. I want my children to do the same. People try to sell you things all the time and you need to critically question the material being presented to you otherwise you could end up buying the Brooklyn Bridge or an elevator pass at a school that doesn't have an elevator. I could set up a study that would compare how the 6A schools measure against the 3-2-1A schools in producing varsity high school wrestlers. The 3-2-1A schools would definitely come out better per capita because they are filling the same 14 number of spots on the team with a lot less students in their schools than the 6-A schools. This would be a meaningless study. You certainly could not jump to the conclusion that 3-2-1A schools are doing better at producing varsity wrestlers than 6-A schools based on this type of study.

The fact that the study shows there are 24,326,974 people in Texas and only four Big 12 schools for an average of 6,081,474 in state residents per Big 12 school vs. 2,802,134 in Kansas with 2 Big 12 schools for an average of only 1,401,067 in state residents per Big 12 school demonstrates to me that this study is not a fair basis of comparsion.

This study does not in any way convince me that Kansas high schools are per capita ahead of Texas high schools in producing Division I football and/or basketball players. There may be such a study but this is not it. We are just not comparing apples to apples in this study. It is way too narrow and the sample is not large enough to draw any meaningful conclusions. My common sense tells me that Kansas would probably be behind Texas per capita in producing Division I football players but I really could be incorrect about that on a per capita basis. Perhaps sportsfan02 will be able to provide us the data that shows us that Kansas is in fact ahead of Texas in producing Division I football players per capita.



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Originally Posted By: sportsfan02
Originally Posted By: Cokeley

Sportsfan02, I am waiting for you to start blasting all of these folks for being unhappy with KSHSAA just as you have always done to me.

I don't need to "blast", I believe I am in the overwhelming majority as Greg Mann points out!
None of this matters due to this small but important statement right here, "Musselman said the association wasn’t legally obligated to cooperate with state auditors on the report, but agreed to collaborate to promote a sense of transparency".
The more I try to teach you Will the more I realize it's impossible!


Sport0,

When I was younger I used to love watching the Gong Show so I could see the Unknown Comic. He was awesome! However, I am unfamiliar with the Unknown Teacher... Do you have a cool bag you wear on your head too? How can you possibly expect to teach anyone or be respected when you won't even tell us who you are?

I am reading the full audit but we all know that Kansas is one of the MOST restrictive states in the country and that these guys continue to blab the party line "We just do what the schools tells us to do...yada yada yada" while paying themselves high salaries for the duties and creating more job security for themselves. The entire school system is supported by taxpayers, you and me, yet Rick Bowden and Gary Musselman call this a democratic process when the taxpayers have NO vehicle to communicate their wishes. The ONLY people we vote for in this system is the schoolboard, who hires a superintendent, who hires a principal, who hires teachers and coaches. These people are then incestuously placed onto this board so that the entire system beyond who we voted for is good ole boy academe network. You can set down with the present KSHSAA handbook and readline hundreds of lines of policy and rules that are downright absurd. The rules are in place to protect those who don't want to help our student athletes excel. The system levels the playing field (and I am talking in the classroom, on the mat, in the gym, on the field) by pushing the top down instead of bringing the bottom up. No child left behind is bs! It really means don't help anyone get ahead!

Sporto, you showed your southend when you stated that Kansas produces football players on par with other states. We have the MOST watered down playoff system in the country and I want to see you list the NCAA All American football players from Kansas High Schools, not junior colleges, from this decade. It won't take you very long because there aren't many. Per capita is just a silly way to make your case and it still won't work in this instance. KSHSAA is too big, too spendy, full of red tape and HURTS the development of excellent athletes. That is the bottom line.

By the way, does everyone know that we created yet another division this year...1A is being split into two divisions for more sports than just 8 man football. More playoffs, more state champs, more crummy Josten Awards (survey the students and see how many are pleased with their KSHSAA emblem medals that have been given out for at least 35 years. The overwhelming response will be THEY SUCK), more jobs, more games, all this equals more money out of our pocket! 321A is already draining the education system of needed dollars and we just keep running up the tab... SCHOOL CONSOLIDATION now there is a great idea!

It is ironic that the KSHSAA audit was reported on the same day that $39million more in education cuts were being put into place because of budget shortfalls. Lets just whack the whole group and let the schools run themselves.


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Sportsfan02 what can't you read to believe is the truth in it's entirety KANSAS lags behind Texas in producing Division 1 athletes per capita etc.

Husker Fan and Cokely are right on target!

Do you Sportsfan02 look at team rosters and the production of All-American's?

Kansas as a State could do Much, Much Better and definitely has room for improvement!


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I think separate rules could be made for larger schools and smaller schools. If the summer contact rule does not work for the smaller schools let the 3-2-1A Board members vote it out just for 3-2-1 A schools.

Also I think you better be concerned when 40% of your members and the majority of your larger members are against one of your policies. I have seen the results of a situation like that and they can be very costly for an organization.

For wrestling the main change I would like to see them make is to allow coaches to coach their team's wrestlers in freestyle/greco during the school year. It seems like they could almost make an exception for it as another sport since it is different from folkstyle. Just as I think you can make some different rules for large and small class rules you can also make different rules for different sports. I really believe this rule change would help get more kids involved in freestyle/greco and that would help them improve in wrestling.


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Originally Posted By: Husker Fan
Also I think you better be concerned when 40% of your members and the majority of your larger members are against one of your policies.

You lost me Vince, what majority is against one of their policies?

Originally Posted By: Husker Fan
For wrestling the main change I would like to see them make is to allow coaches to coach their team's wrestlers in freestyle/greco during the school year.

The problem is, if you do that for wrestling, just like the summer contact rules, then eventually you will have to do it for all of the other sports.


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Sportsfan02:

Perhaps I could have stated that better but the majority I was referring to was based on this finding from the audit that Mr. Musselman addressed in the first article that you posted a couple of days ago:

Overall, about 40% of the coaches responding to our survey thought that athletes in Kansas didn’t have enough opportunities to develop their athletic skills. Coaches in high schools and larger schools (4A-6A) were more likely to think athletes don’t have enough opportunities.

I thought it was basically KSHSAA policies that are they are responding to. And I think it is pretty safe to say from this statement that the majority of the coaches in the larger schools think the some of the KSHSAA current policies contribute to athletes in Kansas not having enough opportunities to develop their athletic skills.

As far as your second point, I am saying to keep within their rules classify freestyle/greco as another sport just as track & field is different from cross country. I believe a coach can coach the same athlete in cross country in the fall and in the two mile in the spring track season. That comparison is about the same difference in my opinion.

Going further on that point though, I do not see why the KSHSAA cannot have different rules apply to different sports just like you should be able to have different rules for different size schools. I bet they already do in some instances. Different sports have different needs just as large schools will have different needs than small schools. If the summer contact rule really works for larger schools but really does not work for smaller schools, then let the larger schools vote it in for themselves and let the smaller schools vote it out for their classes.


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[color:#FFFF99]There's a perception that we're a bunch of small, backwater schools," said KSHSAA executive director Gary Musselman. [/color]

The Kansas travel restrictions are written for schools that aren't competitive to benefit from other schools not being able to travel to get quality competition and having to have them on their schedules.

[color:#FFFF99]The reason for scheduling bylaws is trying to help drive and fullfill schedules within the state,” Musselman said. “If I’m in Liberal and I’m begging for games, and I’m good, then I’m really begging (because) it’s hard to be remote and good.

“I can’t get Kansas schools to come play me, but maybe if they aren’t busy scheduling out of state they might be available to play me. I guarantee you Garden City, Dodge City would be hurt more if we lifted the lid and said you can just go out of state as far as you want, as many times as you want, because they’re going to have a harder time filling schedules.”
[/color]

Steel sharpens steel or lets stay instate and play someone who isn't quite as good to help them out. The travel rule appears to be an effort help everyone be the same and no one become exceptional. Our society rewards exceptional people, why would we want to all be the same?

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