Wrestling Talk Forums supported
USA Wrestling Kansas KWCA
Wrestling Talk Forums supported & maintained by USA Wrestling-Kansas
USAW USA Wrestling Kansas
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 321
Member
Member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 321
I kicked this out last year, so I am asking again. Do we really need to have Sub-Districts to advance to state?

Looking at all the tournaments that are dropping out this year, makes me wonder if people can really afford to go to 3 tournaments in a row. My thinking is that District Tournaments would be a lot more competitive with fuller brackets and save people a bunch of time and money. Might even boost overall attendance at State.

Any thoughts on this? I know I can't be the only one who is thinking this way. Thanks, Troy


Fortune assists the daring.
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 138
W
Member
Member
W Offline
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 138
Let me run the numbers for you to give you an idea of the kind of trouble you are asking for.

There are presently 101 brackets total between 8U and 16U and all the weights in between. Unlike at a non qualifier tournament, you don't have the option of combining weight classes so all 101 brackets have to be wrestled.

Now obviously, I don't have the numbers to cite concerning how many brackets end up being full at the Subs and then the District tournaments, but for the sake of illustration let's assume that all of the brackets are 16 man brackets. That is 28 matches per bracket (29 if you include the "alternate" 5th place match). Doing a little multiplication shows that is 2828(2929) total matches to be wrestled in 1 tournament in 1 day.

Now obviously there is going to be several brackets that most likely won't be full, but on the other hand, you could find yourself bracketing 24 man brackets in some cases. Understand that you cannot put limits on the number of entries into this 1 qualifying tournament you are proposing.

At this point assuming the worst there are going to be VERY few venues that could offer enough wrestling surfaces to accommodate such a large number of entrants. The Bi-Center in D3, the Expo Center in DI, maybe one of the barns down in D2, and who knows about out in D4. Thus you are left with your only option of extending out a District tournament to a 2 day affair. I'm betting than an extra weekend and a car trip is probably less expensive than 2 two day tournaments back to back.

Just something to think about. Again that is worse case filled to the brim brackets, but even slash that by half and you are still looking at nearly 1400 matches in a day, divide that by 10 mats = 140 matches per surface , by 12 mats = 116 matches per surface. And by the time you get to qualifiers there really is no excuse for not having mat sizes which are by rule supposed to be a specific size. There aren't very many schools around the state that can fit those types of surface numbers by specification.

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,933
S
Member
Member
S Offline
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,933
It could certainly be done in D2. You would have about a 1000 entries total, give or take. What I have been advocating for a few years is to wrestle the 16U brackets on Friday evening while doing weigh-ins for the other ages. This would require 2-4 mats and would give those younger kids a chance to see the older guys wrestle. Many of those younger kids never get an opportunity throughout the season to even see a high school match.


Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 937
BLT Offline
Member
Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 937
I also like the way subs helps the seeding going into districts. Yes it is a qualifier but its also about making sure the kids are seeded properly going into state.
And now that we've added the High School Division I think it would be too much for just one day.

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 6,248
S
Member
Member
S Offline
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 6,248
Yes - I think it is needed for the state series. I also think some kids who get beat out at subdistrict may be good enough to place at state. But - that time of the year you better have your "A" game or you get left at home - hopefully peaking kids at the right time.

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,143
H
Member
Member
H Offline
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,143
Originally Posted By: sportsfan02
It could certainly be done in D2. You would have about a 1000 entries total, give or take. What I have been advocating for a few years is to wrestle the 16U brackets on Friday evening while doing weigh-ins for the other ages. This would require 2-4 mats and would give those younger kids a chance to see the older guys wrestle. Many of those younger kids never get an opportunity throughout the season to even see a high school match.


i think it's a bigger challenge, than it sounds. not a bad idea as i am always for the younger kids getting an opportunity to watch the high schoolers. i just have a few questions, about your plan.
- how many venues will allow set-up before 3:00 on friday?
- i know in d1, (probably worse in d3/d4), that it would force parents to take kids out of scholl friday to be there on time, weigh in etc. do we want to lose any more school time than we need to? this sport has a bad enough reputation for that anyway.
- do most venues have the room for such a big tourney? i know that has been a topic of many "suggestions" in the past.
- how many families actually travel the night before for districts/subs? might not be as many there to watch as we think.
- how would you charge admission? at state weighs and done then they clear the building then charge for spectators for the all-star dual. there wouldn't be time to take on such a plan. a second gym would work, but then we are back to the venue question. admission is where the $$$ is made for some of these tournaments.

again not trying to drag you into the street on this sportsfan, just trying to help in planning such changes. i am always for improvement, but realize that without a proper plan most things will fail and be tossed aside, without allowing for improvements to be made. to plan for these types of changes, we must think of all possible problems that could arise, and weigh the positive/negative. i feel at this point in time it would be a bad decision to do away with subs. but lets keep working on ways to improve our sport.
-


"with attitude, will, and some spirit"
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,377
Member
Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,377
I fully support the State qualifying tournaments just how they are. In a lot of cases, just making it to Districts is a major accomplishment for many young wrestlers. It can build their confidence level and enhance their desire to work harder the next year to make it to the big show (State).


Lee Girard
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 21
T
Member
Member
T Offline
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 21
Just wait till #5 of your little wrestlers is at the upper end of his/her last year of kids wrestling. You will think different. You wont want it to be over so bad. Now if you dont mind im going to go watch old VHS tapes of wrestling and cry my eyes out.

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,555
Member
Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,555
Originally Posted By: HEADUP

- how would you charge admission? at state weighs and done then they clear the building then charge for spectators for the all-star dual. there wouldn't be time to take on such a plan. a second gym would work, but then we are back to the venue question. admission is where the $$$ is made for some of these tournaments.


Are Subs really charging admission? District 2 does not.


Unnecessary Roughness is Necessary
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,933
S
Member
Member
S Offline
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,933
Originally Posted By: HEADUP

how many venues will allow set-up before 3:00 on friday?

I believe that tournament would be scheduled during many school districts spring break. I can only speak for our club but we could be set up well in advance of that time. I'm sure the same would be true of other clubs/facilities as well.


Originally Posted By: HEADUP
i know in d1, (probably worse in d3/d4), that it would force parents to take kids out of scholl friday to be there on time, weigh in etc. do we want to lose any more school time than we need to? this sport has a bad enough reputation for that anyway.

See my above answer but beyond that many parents don't mind taking them out of school for Tulsa et.al.

Originally Posted By: HEADUP
do most venues have the room for such a big tourney?

I believe most schools with two gyms could handle such a number in a split tournament and particularly with the 16U being wrestled off on Friday evening.

Originally Posted By: HEADUP
how many families actually travel the night before for districts/subs? might not be as many there to watch as we think.

You won't get them all that is for sure. But if you get 30-50%? I would take that and it would be good for the local merchants and the host's concessions and more importantly good for our young wrestlers to get to see the big boys wrestle.

Originally Posted By: HEADUP
how would you charge admission?

I wouldn't, this would be no different than any other sub or district tournament with the exception of the 16U group being wrestled off on Friday night.


Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 321
Member
Member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 321
I like the ideas and thoughts on this. Esp. the Highshoolers wrestling on Fri. That would be the way to go in my opinion. Just be another chance to sell more concessions I suppose. Granted when I was kicking this around I was looking at total numbers. Revenue and consessions were not a concern to me insofar as the actual wrestling and advancement are concerned.

My thoughts were that almost all subs last year were at or below 500. That being divided between the 101 brackets and you get an average of 5 per bracket. So on average you lose one per bracket at subs to advance to districts. I understand this doesn't reflect the true picture of subs. or even the subsequent advancement to districts. You can still get 5th, 6th or 7th etc, at subs and advance to districts. The fact is most of the brackets fill up in the middle weights for 8-10-12U the rest tend to be 5 or less. This is taboo I know, but if you eliminated the 6U from wrestling up in 8U then you would lose prob another 100 kids per sub-district easily. Whether that is good or bad I don't know. But it would make it more doable.

Too me it made more sense to have an 8-12 man bracket and have a real wrestle off with all the players from that dist. That way there would be no dispute that someone who could have advanced didn't.

I look at trends and they tell me that we people are hurting finacially across the board. I really don't want our state series to be about the have and the have nots. These kids and their parents should be able to afford to do this and we should be looking at ways to make that happen.

Keep the thoughts rolling, this at least gives people some ideas to work with and maybe someone will make a difference.


Fortune assists the daring.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,143
H
Member
Member
H Offline
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,143
Originally Posted By: Beeson
Originally Posted By: HEADUP

- how would you charge admission? at state weighs and done then they clear the building then charge for spectators for the all-star dual. there wouldn't be time to take on such a plan. a second gym would work, but then we are back to the venue question. admission is where the $$$ is made for some of these tournaments.


Are Subs really charging admission? District 2 does not.



i have heard that pittsburg charges admission because the university won't let them have concessions. there would be no benefit to host if there isn't a little $ coming in.


"with attitude, will, and some spirit"

Link Copied to Clipboard
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 9 guests, and 0 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Super Admin, bvswwrestling, CoachFitzOS, Dluce, Shawn Russell
12,303 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums11
Topics36,091
Posts250,722
Members12,303
Most Online1,305
Mar 13th, 2025
Top Posters
usawks1 8,595
smokeycabin 6,248
Aaron Sweazy 5,262
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 8.0.0
(Release build 20240826)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 8.3.23 Page Time: 0.031s Queries: 38 (0.021s) Memory: 3.0650 MB (Peak: 3.5910 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2025-08-01 16:59:22 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS