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Situation:
Championship match of a National Tournament. End of first period 0-0. Second period one wrestler is pinned in 25 seconds. For a total of 1:25. Refs call pin, raise winner's hand. Coach of the kid who got pinned called attention to the ref that the timekeeper put the wrong amount of time..1 min vs. 1:30. But only after his wrestler got pinned. The ref waived off the pin and put 30 more seconds on the clock...for a total of 1:55 for the 1st period. Would not give the wrestler who pinned the wrestler time to recompose himself after he had the high of winning and then the shock of having it taken away. 2nd Period: Wrestler that pinned the kid gets pinned. Protested to head official. Head official said since it was not a valid period, the pin did not count.
Should the original pin have stood?
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wrestling parents,
I've read your post several times and I'm having a hard time folllowing what you're saying. Because you have several different times listed. Were they wrestling 1 min. periods? I don't see how writing down the wrong amount time cancels out a pin and a very big win for that young man. That means when a scorekeeper writes down the points on a scorecard for the wrong wrestler or one to many near falls down for a wrestler. The points are cancelled out and we start the match over at 0-0 or the scorekeeper flips the points back to 0 at the start of a match and forgets to flip the period back to 1 and leaves it on 3. One wrestler gets pinned in the 1st period and a coach can say it wasn't a valid match because the scoreclock or flipper scoreboard wasn't on period 1. I've seen it happen several times with the periods not being on the correct period for matches in progress. I think I'll protest a match if I have a wrestler lose a match that way or start watching the times put down on the scorecard. But, common sense tells me that the scorekeeper made an honest mistake and you move on to the next match that you need to coach and not be a chicken**** over an honest mistake. Those table workers volunteer their time and they keep score for 80 to 150 matches in a day depending on the size of the tournament.
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Your post doesn't make a whole lot of sense. You say that the timekeeper only put 1 minute on the clock instead of 1:30. If that was the case how exactly did the kid get pinned at 1:25, I would assume someone would have thrown the towel at 1:00 if that was the case.
William Nigel Isom Officials Director (USAWKS) KSHSAA #14274 USAWKS #577 Riley KS
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Sorry, let me start over.
Period #1 1:00 was put on the clock, as opposed to the 1:30 that should have been. Time expired, score was 0-0.
Period #2 1:00 was put on the clock. Wrestler #1 pins Wrestler #2 with 35 seconds left on the clock. Pin was awarded.
Coach of wrestler #2 protested and said the incorrect time was put on the clock in the first and second period. The ref waived off the pin and had the timekeeper put 30 additional seconds on the clock to "finish" period 1. That made period one 1:55 total. End of the "2nd" period one, score was 3-2 in favor of Wrestler #1. The second period #2, wrestler #2 pinned wrestler #1. The ref would not give wrestler #1 time to compose himself after they waived off his win. You could tell he was not 100% after that.
I totally understand the people doing the clock are volunteers, I never said anything against them. It seems like a wrestler was penalized for a mistake that was made, and not by him.
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Nigel or other referees, the timekeepers evidently incorrectly set the first period at a one minute period instead of the correct time of 1 minute and 30 seconds. Evidently neither coach protested this as the 1st period expired after one minute with no score. After 25 seconds wrestler #2 gets pinned. At this time after his wrestler has been pinned, wrestler #2's coach decides to protest the incorrect first period clock time. The referee waives the pin and then restarts the first period with 30 seconds left on the clock.
Should the referee allowed wrestler #2 coach's protest of the incorrect 1st period time (60 instead of 90 seconds) after his wrestler had been pinned 25 seconds into the start of the second period when there was not a protest made at the end of the first period?
Vince Nowak Kansas College Wrestling Fund Supporter Please join the fight with your contributions
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This one is pretty simple guys
Rule 5-1 Articles 1-4 describe what is considered "bad time". It doesn't specifically mention a situation where the wrong amount of time was placed on the score clock to begin with. HOWEVER it does mention about when a clock should have been stopped at the end of a period.
All of the above would not have been applicable and I'll say why in a second...
Rule 6-5-3
"When the timekeeper makes an error or the clock fails to start, the referee is to make a judgement concerning the amount of time that should have been consumed. ERRORS MUST BE CORRECTED PRIOR TO THE START OF ANY SUBSEQUENT PERIOD."
And thus,
Since the coach did not make mention of the error before the second period started, he had no right to protest the 1st period. Therefore his kid got pinned and that should have been the end of the match. This is why it is important for both coaches to know the rules as well as the officials. If the coach of the eventual losing wrestler would have known that time errors can't be corrected after the start of the next period, he could have mentioned this and it would have been the end of the arguement.
The call that was made on the mat by the official was incorrect. Hope this clears things up.
William Nigel Isom Officials Director (USAWKS) KSHSAA #14274 USAWKS #577 Riley KS
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I'd also like to mention that there is a certain set of conduct rules set forth for coaches of our sport. Some of them involve unethical practices. I don't know the coach involved in this situation, but IF he knew in the 1st period that the time was incorrect and let it happen, and then only after his wrestler had gotten beat said something, that is a VERY unethical thing to attempt ( and apprently succeded ).
William Nigel Isom Officials Director (USAWKS) KSHSAA #14274 USAWKS #577 Riley KS
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Originally posted by Nigel Isom: This one is pretty simple guys
Rule 5-1 Articles 1-4 describe what is considered "bad time". It doesn't specifically mention a situation where the wrong amount of time was placed on the score clock to begin with. HOWEVER it does mention about when a clock should have been stopped at the end of a period.
All of the above would not have been applicable and I'll say why in a second...
Rule 6-5-3
"When the timekeeper makes an error or the clock fails to start, the referee is to make a judgement concerning the maount of time that should have been consumed. ERRORS MUST BE CORRECTED PRIOR TO THE START OF ANY SUBSEQUENT PERIOD."
And thus,
Since the coach did not make mention of the error before the second period started, he had no right to protest the 1st period. Therefore his kid got pinned and that should have been the end of the match. This is why it is important for both coaches to know the rules as well as the officials. If the coach of the eventual losing wrestler would have know that time errors can't be corrected after the start of the next period, he could have mentioned this and it would have been the end of the arguement.
The call that was made on the mat by the official was incorrect. Hope this clears things up. Nigel, Right on! You are exactly right on this. I witnessed the match and heard Dave Pearcy make the incorrect call. Until it was brought to my attention, I didn't know that rule. It is on page 20. They owe him a trophy and a correction. Eric Johnson Renegades
Eric Johnson
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Originally posted by Nigel Isom: This one is pretty simple guys
"....When the timekeeper makes an error or the clock fails to start, the referee is to make a judgement concerning the amount of time that should have been consumed. ERRORS MUST BE CORRECTED PRIOR TO THE START OF ANY SUBSEQUENT PERIOD."...Hope this clears things up. Nigel, first of all, thank you for clearing that up and letting wrestlingparents know that their son really did win the match whether the tournament decides to correct the outcome or not. Wrestlingparents, since this was a national tournament I think you should definitely continue to protest this outcome. Your son won and took first place. Congratulations to him. Now I hope you don't mind but I want to piggyback on this one to ask Nigel to clear up an old question I had. I only quoted part of what you said to ask another question. At Kids State in our son's semifinal match two years ago, before the start of the match another team's coach came in front of the scorer's table and was probably discussing something about the prior match. The referee (it was not you) did not notice this and started the match. The table workers did not start the clock since they were talking with the other team's coach. My son got a quick takedown and I believe maybe even some back points (I can't remember for sure about the back points). By this time probably thirty seconds into the period, the table workers noticed my son's match was going on and started trying to alert the referee that the clock had not started. I believe they threw a towel in about 45 seconds into the first period or got the referees attention at that point. There would have been about 45 seconds remaining in the first period when the referee stopped to confer with the table workers and coaches. After some discussion with both coaches and much to our son's coach's dismay, the referee restarted the match at 0-0. It did not effect the ultimate outcome of the match, but I have always wondered if that was the correct decision. Now have reading the part of the rule that I quoted from you, it seems like maybe the referee should not have had the match restarted but should have estimated the amount of time and kept the score the way it was. Do you agree or did the referee make the right decision in restarting the match from the start of the first period at 0-0?
Vince Nowak Kansas College Wrestling Fund Supporter Please join the fight with your contributions
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Another good question. I didn't quote the entire rule above since it did not pertain to the situation so it reads...
"When the timekeeper makes an error or the clock fails to start WHEN THE REFEREE INDICATES TIME IS TO BEGIN", the referee is to make a judgement concerning the amount of time that should have been consumed."
The situation you described above is not really consididered "bad time" based on what happened, so it wouldn't really require any rewrestling to happen. So what should have happened is the official should have made an estimate as to how much time had elapsed and then set teh clock accordingly and left teh score the way it was.
If it was me in the situation I would have approached both coaches and said "Look the table worker failed to start the clock, obviously 1 minute or 1:30 minutes has not gone by ( depending on the age group ) All three of us know that all points that were just scored were valid points and within the time limit, so I need both of you coaches to agree on how much time you think went by." After listening to both coaches if I didn't have a good guess as to how much went by I would average their guess and take that much time off the clock, if I had a pretty good guess as to how much time had gone by I would say the above statement minus the part about asking them how much time had gone by.
Now what happened in that match involving the restart of the match was technically not correct by the book, however since none of the coaches protested the ruling by misapplication, I think what did happened was the next fairest thing to do based on the situation.
William Nigel Isom Officials Director (USAWKS) KSHSAA #14274 USAWKS #577 Riley KS
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"Since the coach did not make mention of the error before the second period started, he had no right to protest the 1st period. Therefore his kid got pinned and that should have been the end of the match. This is why it is important for both coaches to know the rules as well as the officials. If the coach of the eventual losing wrestler would have known that time errors can't be corrected after the start of the next period, he could have mentioned this and it would have been the end of the arguement."
Actually Nigel, our coach did tell the head official that they could not protest the clock time because the period was complete, and he over ruled him. If the head offical makes the wrong call, what can you do?? We have a letter being sent to Bill Gossett with everything outlined. Do I think it will make a difference, probably not, but it is worth a try.
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Ok, well I appologize, I did not realize that your coach had done so.
I would say that you are probably doing the right thing as far as writing your letter is concerned. Although you are probably correct in that a suitable resolution for you won't be reached.
I would say in the future carry your rule book with you so that if a situation like this arises you can look it up on the mat. To be honest no matter how good of a referee you are, its very difficult to remember ALL of the rules off the top of the head, especially regarding situations like this. This why the rule book leaves open the possibility to question a misapplication of a rule, this was certainly one of those sitations. The decision that was made is kinda shocking to me. I met Dave Piercy this weekend and he strikes me as a very intelligent man who knows his stuff very well.
Just a really tough situation, and im sorry that things worked out this way. Im even more sorry that the coach of the eventual winner was not man enough and ethical enough to let his wrestler lose with dignity. Now this kid will have to know forever that he did not actually win the title that he holds.
William Nigel Isom Officials Director (USAWKS) KSHSAA #14274 USAWKS #577 Riley KS
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Nigel, thank you for all this time you spent on giving us answers to our questions. I really appreciate your answer to my specific question too.
It will be very disappointing if Bill Gossett, the Liberty Nationals tournament director, does not resolve this situation for wrestlingparents' son. Clearly a mistake was made by the the referee and the head official in their son's match.
Vince Nowak Kansas College Wrestling Fund Supporter Please join the fight with your contributions
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You're welcome Vince, I would like to mention however that I have the utmost respect for Dave and the official on the mat who made the call. I think in their minds they were doing what they thought was the fairest thing. The problem with this is the rules I stated above are in place for situations just like this. That way a coach can't come up with 10 seconds left in the 3rd period and argue time and points from the 1st and void anything that happened in those first two periods. I posted a repsonse here from a pure rules perspective. Not as a criticism of a call that was made, because im quite sure i've probably messed up a few calls  . Anytime I post about subjects like this it is for education purposes. Heck as long as i've been doing this i still see new things every weekend im out. We learn from our mistakes and we move on and then the next time it happens we know what to do.
William Nigel Isom Officials Director (USAWKS) KSHSAA #14274 USAWKS #577 Riley KS
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Nigel,
Another very good post. I agree we all make mistakes and need to learn from them. I do not expect a referee or anyone else to be perfect. I agree with you that it is virtually impossible for a referee to remember all the rules all the time. Thanks again though for educating us on these situations.
Vince Nowak Kansas College Wrestling Fund Supporter Please join the fight with your contributions
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okay. got another situation for you to see what the rule is. I do not have a rule book in front of me and I need to purchase one so I can keep it on me at all times matside.
Match goes into double overtime. Wrestler A chooses bottom since he scored the first escape point in the 2nd period. Wrestler A hits a switch, however wrestler B hooks one leg. Wrestler A gets his free leg in between the hips of wrestler B and starts working to free his other leg to complete the move. As wrestler A is still working to free his leg the official calls a Stalemate with 0:07 seconds left on the clock. The wrestlers are reset and wrestler B is able to keep wrestler A from escaping and wins the match. Note* both wrestlers had been cautioned for stalling previously in the match. What is the rule regarding double overtime in this situation?
"Everything we do should be for the future of our children."
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Well there are a few guidelines and rules regarding double overtime. In a nutshell it definatly addresses a situation where stalling might occur. One of the things it does mention is the possibility of calling a stalemate when neither wrestler is making any progress.
As you can imagine when both wrestler have ahold of each others legs this becomes a stalemate situation pretty quickly. Based on what you described above, the correct calls were made and the match ended as it should have.
William Nigel Isom Officials Director (USAWKS) KSHSAA #14274 USAWKS #577 Riley KS
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Well we heard from Bill Gosset at Liberty Nationals. He would not come right out and say they made a mistake but did say he would not feel right taking the 1st place away from the other wrestler. I do understand that. Then he proceeded to ask our coach about Lucas' wrestling history and character. Our coach told everything about Lucas and Bill acknowledged he won the 12/U Championship in 2005 at Liberty Nationals with all pins. Bill went on to say that they don't normally look at the Heavyweights for the Most Valuable Wrestler award due to having smaller brackets, but he is awarding Lucas the 2006 Most Valuable Wrestler award. Even though he deserves the 1st place, that he did win, this is a great honor for him.
Thank you for all your help on this situation.
Genia Vincent
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Thats good news to hear wrestlingparents, its certainly better than nothing at all being done.
William Nigel Isom Officials Director (USAWKS) KSHSAA #14274 USAWKS #577 Riley KS
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