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After 5 years in Fargo as a national team coach and reflecting each and every year what can be done to improve our results and make us a top 5 team in the nation I want to know what can be done to make this happen. One can make excuses of numbers in the state,etc. However, it is going to have to be an effort from North to South, East to West to make this happen. By no means am I the all knowing but from I see, the following needs to happen:

#1)Training must begin in March and continue until the National Tournament in July. I am not saying 5 days a week for 5 months. But Mat time must be a priority a couple times a week. Not just any mat time, but working on USA Wrestlings designed technique to become successful.

#2)Treat Fargo like it is: A National Tournament. Too many kids attending do not take it as serious as it is. It's the toughest tournament in the nation. It's not band camp, it's a national tournament. We do not go there to hang out with friends, sell gear, eat in the cafeteria, oh and then wrestle a little bit. We go there to compete against the best in the country and athletes need to realize this and focus on this to be successful.

#3)Weight classes: Plan on going to the lowest weight your body will allow for both styles. Many of the top kids are coming down another weight class from high school. That is why you never stop training, dieting etc. It's the biggest tournament alive and you have to treat it like it. Also, plan on remaining at that weight for both styles. Too many kids want to bump up after greco b/c they don't want to put out the effort of pulling weight again. This is wrong and only in very few cases can you be successful and become an All-American at this. You are in Fargo to bring home trophies and get better... Choose a weight, train for that weight, get it down early, and stick to it for 7 days of wrestling.

#4) We also must remember what we are: We are team Ks. We must get rid of the mindset of "I am not working out with other teams" or as coaches "I train these kids only" etc. We must be willing to work together and make it possible for us to train together more often. Steel does sharpen steel. However, we must also make an effort to get those who are not quite there to the point of being an All-American.

#5) As coaches, we must all be open to new technique, training habits, etc. Our way is not the only way. If it was, we would be the best in the Nation. We are not. We must all be willing to take time to learn, study, and be students of this sport. I personally have so much to learn and I owe it to athletes I train to find as many ways possible to make them better. We don't do this for money we all know. We do this b/c we were raised doing this, we love it, we probably don't know any other way and we want to give it back because we appreciate the experiences wrestling has given us. But until we make ourselves better and change the mindset of today's athlete, we will be on a treadmill going nowhere!

Good luck all of Kansas this fall and I am looking forward to seeing you all in the Winter, spring and summer for "Wrestling Season" smile

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Thanks Coach Church. I enjoyed that. Good, well-thought out and insightful points.

You used the word 'mindset' in your post. Have you ever read the book by that title? It is subtitled, 'How We Can Learn to Fulfill Our Potential'.

Our principal had us read and discuss it as a faculty. I didn't like it at all, at first. I tend to be too skeptical (one of my unhealthy 'mindsets').

However, 6 months later, I see the concepts in the book coming up all the time. Some of the 'research' and antidotes are a bit fluffy (again, my mindset) but overall, I now see the value in several of the main concepts of the book. I try to use those concepts on myself, with my students and with my family. They can be used on/with ANYBODY (the kid serving your bag of fat at Mickey D's!).

Have you ever read it? Its about 250 pages long. Paperbook. Lots of 'white space' and LARGE subtitles so it is a 'quick read'.

The author is a Carol S. Dweck, Ph.D. - since reading it, I have seen her work quoted in other books.

You might enjoy it (along with all you others out there!).

Take care,

Dean


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***Dean plays well with others!!! ;-)
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The biggest point here is "Begin Training in March" Kansas drags folkstyle out waaaaaayyyyyy toooooo long. I know that I am beating a dead horse here, but ending the Jr season the week of regionals and starting FS/GR shortly after High School State will give kansas a huge boost. The biggest problem with this is the buy in from USAWKS kids organization. too worried about rocking the boat to take a chance on this. I know I live in OK now but KS wrestling is important to me. If KS changes the season schedule then the rest of Coach Church's recommendations fall into place.

Craig Adams

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(with thoughts to this thread as well as the "hand-wringing" thread)

Kudo's to Coach Church on an excellent post!

The facts are, that we only had 3 Freestyle All-Americans! One each in Cadet and Juniors and of course, our National Champion; Krista Revelle!

7 out of 14 of our total All-Americans were in Cadet Greco, arguably the division that is not as complete as other divisions. That is not to take anything away from these 7 warriors!!

There are many excuses and a few legitimate reasons, why we failed to score where anticipated. The fact remains, we didn't!
(the team scores are a testament to this)

I agree with Coach Church wholeheartedly! Our successes and our failures have a lot to do with our mindset! We have a few that are just happy to be (in Fargo) and others that are only after the gear. We have to have the attitude of preparing the best we can to wrestle our best!

We need greater buy in by our HS coaches. That means, buy your USAW card, get your Bronze card, attend a Silver College ... do everything you can to make yourself a better coach! Several top rated coaches can attest, you will improve your folkstyle game by learning FS/GR.

In a quick cursory examination of the top HS programs in the Nation, most have involvement of both their coaches and athletes, in Summer programs! I know that KSHSAA hampers us but other State find ways to get it done.

There are some thoughts that next year USAWKS will require wrestlers to attend the regional training centers. While Fargo is a great place to get schooled it is not a great place to learn!

I will say this, overall, we have a great group of well-behaved, hard-working individuals! The parents of these youngsters should be proud of what the future has in store!

... more later.


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Randy Hinderliter
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Cadet Greco

Team Name - Wrestler Count Team Abbreviation Points
1. Pennsylvania, PA - 39 PA 79.00
2. California, CA - 43 CA 55.00
3. Illinois, IL - 57 IL 47.00
4. Oregon, OR - 31 OR 41.00
5. New Jersey, NJ - 18 NJ 38.00
6. Michigan, MI - 17 MI 32.00
7. Florida, FL - 19 FL 30.00
8. Minnesota, MN - 37 MN 29.00
9. Wisconsin, WI - 34 WI 27.00
10. Kansas, KS - 24 KS 25.00

Junior Greco

Team Name - Wrestler Count Team Abbreviation Points
1. Illinois, IL - 53 IL 76.00
2. Florida, FL - 20 FL 63.00
3. Minnesota, MN - 30 MN 35.00
4. Wisconsin, WI - 32 WI 35.00
5. Michigan, MI - 15 MI 34.00
6. Iowa, IA - 32 IA 31.00
7. California, CA - 53 CA 26.00
8. Utah, UT - 32 UT 23.00
9. Pennsylvania, PA - 36 PA 20.00
10. Washington, WA - 34 WA 20.00
11. Colorado, CO - 29 CO 17.00
12. Missouri, MO - 24 MO 15.00
13. Louisiana, LA - 11 LA 14.00
14. Idaho, ID - 18 ID 12.00
15. New Jersey, NJ - 11 NJ 12.00
16. Oklahoma, OK - 14 OK 12.00
17. Virginia, VA - 21 VA 12.00
18. Arizona, AZ - 27 AZ 11.00
19. Oregon, OR - 24 OR 11.00
20. North Dakota, ND - 13 ND 10.00
21. Kansas, KS - 21 KS 8.00

Cadet Women

Team Name - Wrestler Count Team Abbreviation Points
1. Hawaii, HI - 10 HI 41.00
2. California, CA - 11 CA 36.00
3. Texas, TX - 13 TX 33.00
4. Pennsylvania, PA - 7 PA 30.00
5. New York - 8 NY 26.00
6. Michigan, MI - 5 MI 24.00
7. Wyoming - 2 WY 15.00
8. Wisconsin - 2 WI 13.00
9. Arizona - 2 AZ 12.00
10. Iowa, IA - 3 IA 10.00
11. Colorado - 1 CO 8.00
12. Indiana, IN - 2 N 8.00
13. Georgia - 1 GA 6.00
14. Minnesota, MN - 1 MN 6.00
15. Kansas - 1 KS 5.00

Junior Women

1. California, CA - 36 CA 96.00
2. Texas, TX - 30 TX 42.00
3. Hawaii, HI - 19 HI 37.00
4. Washington, WA - 18 WA 32.00
5. Michigan, MI - 10 MI 27.00
6. Iowa, IA - 7 IA 25.00
7. New York, NY - 13 NY 24.00
8. Pennsylvania, PA - 12 PA 24.00
9. Indiana, IN - 4 IN 22.00
10. Illinois, IL - 3 IL 14.00
11. Missouri, MO - 3 MO 13.00
12. Kansas, KS - 3 KS 8.00

Cadet Freestyle

Team Name - Wrestler Count Team Abbreviation Points
1. Illinois, IL - 63 IL 70.00
2. Pennsylvania, PA - 42 PA 60.00
3. Minnesota, MN - 56 MN 42.00
4. Oklahoma, OK - 24 OK 41.00
5. Missouri, MO - 36 MO 40.00
6. New Jersey, NJ - 32 NJ 34.00
7. Iowa, IA - 33 IA 32.00
8. California, CA - 55 CA 31.00
9. Ohio, OH - 54 OH 28.00
10. Oregon, OR - 34 OR 24.00
11. Michigan, MI - 18 MI 23.00
12. Indiana, IN - 26 IN 22.00
13. Maryland, MD - 25 MD 19.00
14. Nebraska, NE - 5 NE 16.00
15. Colorado, CO - 26 CO 14.00
16. New York, NY - 49 NY 14.00
17. Wisconsin, WI - 34 WI 13.00
18. Washington, WA - 32 WA 11.00
19. South Dakota, SD - 6 SD 10.00
20. Texas, TX - 22 TX 10.00
21. Idaho, ID - 27 ID 8.00
22. North Carolina, NC - 6 NC 8.00
23. Nevada, NV - 6 NV 7.00
24. Virginia, VA - 13 VA 7.00
25. Utah, UT - 20 UT 6.00
26. North Dakota, ND - 14 ND 5.00
27. Kentucky, KY - 2 KY 4.00
28. Tennessee, TN - 6 TN 4.00
29. Delaware, DE - 5 DE 2.00
30. Florida, FL - 20 FL 2.00
31. New Mexico, NM - 1 NM 2.00
32. Georgia, GA - 9 GA 1.00
33. Kansas, KS - 25 KS 1.00

Junior Freestyle

Team Name - Wrestler Count Team Abbreviation Points
1. Illinois, IL - 51 IL 93.00
2. Iowa, IA - 50 IA 55.00
3. Wisconsin, WI - 37 WI 32.00
4. Ohio, OH - 53 OH 30.00
5. California, CA - 54 CA 29.00
6. Michigan, MI - 20 MI 27.00
7. Minnesota, MN - 54 MN 27.00
8. Florida, FL - 22 FL 26.00
9. Virginia, VA - 28 VA 24.00
10. New York, NY - 40 NY 22.00
11. Indiana, IN - 33 IN 19.00
12. Colorado, CO - 29 CO 18.00
13. Oklahoma, OK - 27 OK 15.00
14. Washington, WA - 35 WA 15.00
15. New Jersey, NJ - 25 NJ 12.00
16. Arizona, AZ - 31 AZ 9.00
17. Maryland, MD - 24 MD 9.00
18. South Carolina, SC - 5 SC 9.00
19. Nebraska, NE - 6 NE 8.00
20. Oregon, OR - 33 OR 8.00
21. Hawaii, HI - 14 HI 7.00
22. Pennsylvania, PA - 48 PA 7.00
23. Massachusetts, MA - 6 MA 6.00
24. North Dakota, ND - 15 ND 5.00
25. Texas, TX - 18 TX 5.00
26. Wyoming, WY - 24 WY 5.00
27. Idaho, ID - 19 ID 4.00
28. Kansas, KS - 23 KS 4.00


Are you making a POSITIVE difference in the life of kids?

Randy Hinderliter
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I'm not fully aware of the situation, I watch results and keep my ears open. I heard that the kids that compete now are required to attend several pre-competition training events. Is that true? Does that involve significant travel? If this is true, is this driving some competitors away? Many kids are working in the summer and parents are on budgets, mandatory training sessions seem like an unnecessary obstacle to me. I can see the benefit in it too but it seems like it would be an obstacle for some.

Also, It seemed like several top tier kids were missing from the line-up this year. That alone is going to bring down overall results.

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Ike,

No kid was or has ever been denied the opportunity to compete in the National Tournament. The training sessions were encouraged, and at one point were going to be a requirement, but in the end, the kids figured out that they were still going to be allowed to compete and our numbers this year fell dramatically for training center attendance.

So, no, the required training centers do not exist. smile Hope all is well with you bro!

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Another thought..

Are freestyle and Greco very visible to the overall Kansas wrestling community? There doesn't seem to be a lot of priority placed on the styles in the Kids and HS realms either. If there were more "advertisement" on the kids scene and HS State Tourney, there may be an increase in interest. It may be as simple as having a booth with information and pictures of the All-American's of years past.

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It seems like Kansas does get a lot of wrestlers to the college level. However, not a lot of these college wrestlers think it is important to wrestle at Fargo. I do not understand this mentality. If I had the opportunity or was planning on wrestling in college one day, Fargo, would be the can't miss tournament to train and compete in every year. You will compete against the best competition in the U.S., get to train with some of the better coaches Kansas has to offer, and get to practice and learn from many other top wrestlers in Kansas.

I would like to see our future college wrestlers step up to the plate and make it a priority to compete at Fargo. This will only bring more success at the college level from Kansas wrestlers.

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Hope your well too Church!

More thoughts....Just brainstormin' with the rest of you.

I was never all that interested in Fargo as a wrestler. I didn't know many people going up, it was a skill set I was unfamiliar with, and it cost money my family didn't have. I wrestled the local tourney's but never made it up to Fargo. So, On one hand I think creating obstacles to getting there may make it more difficult to get the numbers. On the other hand, you will probably get a more competitive and prepared core going up there.

I think the first challenge is creating that excitement about the style and the event. With the Olympics coming up next year it's the perfect time to increase the visibility and the excitement in the state.

Lazyman...I think your absolutely right but conveying that message seems to be the break down at this point in the game.

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I agree with Randy.......coaches need to do their part. There are many kids out there that don't have a clue when or where they can practice these styles. The opportunities are available.

Does summer wrestling get expensive? Yes, but where there's a will, there's a way. Many of the parents of the athletes I coach started planning for Fargo months in advance. They held multiple fundraisers. The kids went out and found sponsors. It costs $500 to make the trip to Fargo, which may be the cheapest rate in the US. North Dakota charges close to $800 and the tournament is held in their own state!!

There's only one way to improve our results on the national level........train hard and wrestle often. Other states are getting it done, so can we.

Brandon Jobe

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$500 is a steal and it becomes cheaper with competing in Southern Plains, etc. But to send your kid away to camp, for 10 days with 3 meals a day, Training sessions, Rooms, 2 National Tournaments, and probably $200 + in gear.... It's pretty darn cheap!!! I know times are tough, but as BJobe said, there are plenty of people willing to help and if you have a will, it will happen!

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I have a couple of suggestions
  • fundraising there is already a need for some more FS/GR tournaments maybe procedes go to help fund Fargo ( Fargo Wrestlers officiate?)
  • Its my guess that maybe 20% Ks Clubs offer FS/GR maybe we need to encourage it more at the club level wrestlers need to expeirence the dual team enviornment. My son pushed himself really hard during freestyle and greco season cause he's Schoolboy next year and plans to be the best and go. All this stems from being on elementry dual team and knowing what a blast it is.
  • D1 kids follow that summer wrestling money scholarship I think thats what its for.


Now I encourage my son to do FS/GR. If I thought burnout was an issue I'd ask him to skip Folkstyle state series to rest up for FS\GR season. Heres why wrestling in college would be cool to see. NCAA NAIA WHATEVER? Now traveling the world and competeing on a Global level. And maybe god willing have the Honor to wrestle for his country on world team or dare dream the olympic stage thats my dream for my son. Non of that other crap matters. Plan B is he wrestles thru highschool always have a plan B very important



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Fargo wrestlers need to worry about wrestling and not officiating.

When I was a young lad long ago... I enjoyed wrestling freestyle and greco with kids from other high schools. I don't know that we need more clubs but would like to see the clubs we do have take it to the next level. If we could get about 3-4 more East Kansas type clubs going in Kansas. - Look Out!

I will admit to being a BUM and not doing anything about it personally. Something I hope to change in the future.

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My son wrestled Greco and Freestyle for the first time this year and had a blast. He has always played baseball in the past and made the decision to give that up this year. It seems to have been a great choice for him and thinking back I wish he would have made that change sooner as he will be going into his junior year. We really did know much about freestyle and greco in the past and i'm sure that was partly our fault. We had always felt like the summer was a slow time with not much going on and baseball had more to offer. Clubs need to make sure that the younger kids realize that summer is not a off season but a exciting time to learn more about the sport they love. And that although its different than folkstyle it will still make them a better wrestler overall. I wish we would have found that out a few years earlier then we did but he had a great time. We didn't have much luck this year in Fargo but my son is already talking about going next year. I know the coaches give up alot of time during the summer and I thank them but to improve more organized practices are a must if we want to improve as a team.

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Probably about time for me to add my two cents worth. I will respond to as many of the previous posts on this subject as possible in this one post as I have seen some of the suggestions with which I agree and some that I don't.
First, I can agree with all of Coach Church's recommendations in his first post. However, I have to take exception to his suggestion that Fargo is cheap. If that was the only cost these wrestlers were incurring during the summer season that would be true. But let's remember, they have people wanting them to go to Dual Nationals and Southern Plains not to mention a national tournament or two along with maybe folkstyle team or individual camps. You add even a portion of the rest into the cost of Fargo and we're talking real money here. I think our inability to field a cadet dual team speaks directly to that. I am of the belief that we can't ask our folkstyle participants to subsidize the FS/GR any more than they already are so I don't know where the money is going to come from. Some have suggested FS/GR tournaments as fundraisers but with so few competitors it's not a money-maker anyway.
As to the folkstyle season being too long. Has the Kansas folkstyle season changed in the past 20 years? Do we have more or less FS/GR competitors percentage-wise than we have had in the past? I go to several FS/GR tournaments a year as time allows and I see basically the same numbers, and people for that matter, as I did years ago. What has happened IMO, is that we have seen an encroachment of national folkstyle tournaments on both ends of the summer FS/GR season. I don't know if that has had an impact but I think that trend will continue to get even worse.
The fact is, folkstyle is our national style of choice for the over-whelming majority of wrestling fans. I don't see that changing any time soon, nor do I think that it should. For my money, as long as kids are spending time on the mat during the spring and summer I don't care what style they are participating in.

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SF02 has a couple of good points!

First, April - August use to be reserved for FS/GR, so those competing were doing so in the Olympic styles. Now, one can wrestle in a number of "national" events competing in Folkstyle, throughout the Summer!

I think Kansas needs to get on the band wagon that Idaho and Georgia have. That being, holding 3-style tournaments through the Spring and Summer! Idaho especially, is making the incentives to wrestle Greco and Freestyle, very attractive to the Folkstylers!

I agree also that Folkstyle is America's (and Kansas) choice! We seldom get wrestlers from 4A and below. Primarily due to those athletes are competing in Baseball and Track in the Spring. The "specialists" seem to come from the Metro areas.

The $500.00 Fargo trip in very cheap as far as Fargo trips go! Kansas is the cheapest in the Nation, to the best of my knowledge. I have said before, the biggest bang for the buck in the Summer is competing in the Duals!

We cannot give enough credit to USAWKS Folkstyle kids. Whether it be the Fargo trip, the Schoolboy/girl trip, the Folkstyle Nationals, the Senior Nationals, etc.; it is that branch of the organization that funds a big share of expense. But as SF02 said,"as long as kids are spending time on the mat during the spring and summer I don't care what style they are participating in."

I do remeber a few years ago, we had elimination matches at the Fargo camp. Now, if you want to go, you probably get to go. But, again in my opinion, we should not be taking a wrestler who admits ... "I do not know how to stop a gut wrench."

The experience of going 0-4 can be a mixed bag! Our own Danny Grater went 0-4 his first trip and the following year, was a National Champ! But more often than not, those that go 0-4, will take their gear and not make the trip again! The Fargo trip is an eye-opener for some! As I said earlier, “while Fargo is a great place to get schooled it is not a great place to learn!

This year we had a bunch of wrestlers fall just short of being All-American. They have a challenge and how they accept that "failure" will be a true test of their metal!!

Probably without fail ... if you are winning matches at Fargo ... you are placing in your respective HS State in February!

... that's enough for now! What do you think?


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Originally Posted By: sportsfan02
Probably about time for me to add my two cents worth. I will respond to as many of the previous posts on this subject as possible in this one post as I have seen some of the suggestions with which I agree and some that I don't.
First, I can agree with all of Coach Church's recommendations in his first post. However, I have to take exception to his suggestion that Fargo is cheap. If that was the only cost these wrestlers were incurring during the summer season that would be true. But let's remember, they have people wanting them to go to Dual Nationals and Southern Plains not to mention a national tournament or two along with maybe folkstyle team or individual camps. You add even a portion of the rest into the cost of Fargo and we're talking real money here. I think our inability to field a cadet dual team speaks directly to that. I am of the belief that we can't ask our folkstyle participants to subsidize the FS/GR any more than they already are so I don't know where the money is going to come from. Some have suggested FS/GR tournaments as fundraisers but with so few competitors it's not a money-maker anyway.
As to the folkstyle season being too long. Has the Kansas folkstyle season changed in the past 20 years? Do we have more or less FS/GR competitors percentage-wise than we have had in the past? I go to several FS/GR tournaments a year as time allows and I see basically the same numbers, and people for that matter, as I did years ago. What has happened IMO, is that we have seen an encroachment of national folkstyle tournaments on both ends of the summer FS/GR season. I don't know if that has had an impact but I think that trend will continue to get even worse.
The fact is, folkstyle is our national style of choice for the over-whelming majority of wrestling fans. I don't see that changing any time soon, nor do I think that it should. For my money, as long as kids are spending time on the mat during the spring and summer I don't care what style they are participating in.


In comparison to Fargo for Kansas being $500 while NY, Florida, etc pay $1,500- $2,500. Our kids can go to the entire series for cheaper than many states that offer just Fargo. I was by no means saying that $500 is menial. I am a school teacher and coach... But in comparison!!! $500 is cheap! Thats all I was saying!

I love folkstyle wrestling as actually, I prefer it as well. As far as it being our National Style... This is true. But it's kind of sad that no other country shares Folkstyle with us and therefore we are getting beaten handily when it comes to international or world level competition. I personally would like to see the USA win as a team in both Greco and Freestlye since Folkstyle is not offered as an olympic sport! So as a whole, we have a lot of work to do!

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Getting out of the dorms at Fargo would help, imho.


Did you see that Eckenbacherswartzendruber?

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We are a USA Wrestling organization and we need to support USA Folkstyle Nationals where our Cadets and Junior can earn seperation critieria. We need to back off of the NHSCA event and let those who want to go fund it for themselves unless there is not a conflict in dates.

I have a whole list of improvement ideas but I will have to spend some time editing them so I don't break anyone's toes. I have been there five years in a row and there have been more than a fair share of frustrating momements. Junior Nationals is about the little things and the big things. You have to pay attention to the detail. My first suggestion would be to figure out what they are doing in Illinois! They dominated this year in duals and at Fargo.


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Let me start by saying I used to like freestyle and greco more than folkstyle. I come from one of the states that is all we wrestled until middle school (that was when we start folkstyle).

Having said that, I find freestyle very frustrating with the rules as they are today. It is very hard to coach younger kids and get them fired up about it because it is too easy for kids to lose by trying offensive takedowns. If a kids doesn't finish his/her shots quickly and in great form the defensive wrestler can score very easy. This discourages our younger kids from staying with freestyle. The argument is that freestyle causes them to learn how to finish better and faster...true. However, when you are talking about younger kids they don't see that...they see baseball.

Secondly, we are our own worst enemy. Too many folks see wrestling as an individual sport when it is actually a great team sport. Look at the participation we have for the middle school and elementary school duals. Cost wise you get the biggest bang for your buck at these tournies. This builds experience and comraderie. Same is true for the freestyle/greco dual series. I think if we offered some kind of dual meets we could grow interest and keep if even during freestyle/greco.

Lastly, folkstyle pays more than freestyle or greco. The most kids can realistic hope to get out of wrestling is some money for college. Colleges wrestle folkstyle and there is currently a huge gap between folkstyle and freestyle. I see Will's point but USAW needs to do things like the NHSCA does then. They need to get the colleges to set up booths and do the extra stuff like the NHSCA tourney does. That would help the kids. Have a series of "show case" tournaments that feature different colleges at these tournaments. They do this in soccer all the time.

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Last edited by oaw; 08/02/11 12:12 AM.
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response to shawnbudke. no pun intended.

1st- rules are rules. These rules currently have been in effect for quite some time now and are still representative of the previous.


2ND- WHAT DO YOU THINK CADET AND JUNIOR DUALS ARE? Kansas competes in these events every year. These are individual and team growing experiences. I also recall another dual tournament in Colorado set up and represented by many great wrestlers in the state.

3rd- Folkstyle may pay for college (partial for most) but if you look at the guys from Kansas that were ever worth a crap in college. I would say 95% of them seemed to have competed in Freestyle/Greco competition while in high school. Fargo is crawling with college coaches.

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Lazyman,

I don't disagree with anything you said. I guess I didn't clarify on the duals thing....let me try....

1. We are trying to figure out how to improve our standings at Fargo. I my opinion that starts with improving our number of kids that compete in freestyle and greco. My observation is that the kids really enjoy the duals. Yes we do Schoolboy, Cadet, Junior duals. My point is that maybe if we could develop some kind of program that does more dual type tournaments (not necessarily all national stuff) then maybe kids would do more freestyle and greco in the off season. The trip to Colorado is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

2. As for your third point...I understand about Fargo and the coaches. That comment was more directed to Will's comment about the NHSCA event vice USAW folkstyle Nationals. However, I do think that if other events created an environment where colleges could set up booths and kids could go around and meet the coaches plus get info on the schools then you may attract additional kids.

Now as for the rules are rules....yes they are however, I would debate that they have been in effect for quite some time. The only thing consistent with the rules established for international wrestling is that the constantly change. The push out rule only came into effect in the past 3-5 years (can't remember exactly), the infamous ball grab is fairly new but oh that's right....it changed in just the past year also.

Are all these changes bad...no. The main point is that there seems to be a growing separation between freestyle and folkstyle. Wrestling freestyle doesn't necessarily equate to additional success in folkstyle as much these days at it used to. That was my only point on that.

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From a parent’s perspective, who does not coach, I just drive to practice, here are my thoughts on Coach Church's question:

* First, we need to have our kids develop the proper mindset or mental discipline to succeed at a tournament like Fargo. We do this by increasing our participation in School Boy/Cadet/Jr. duals – nothing makes a kid mentally stronger than a 4 or 5 day dual situation where they get a number of matches. This is also accomplished in practice – practice should be hard and disciplined. Nothing is gained from practice for the sake of practice. Kids must be committed to practice.

*The state needs to increase participation. School Boy duals are a good place to start. I would guess 60% of the kids on my son’s SB duals teams continue to wrestle in the summer, with success. These kids develop bonds that appear to last for a long time. Hand out fliers on these duals at Kids State. Let them know that Freestyle State is a qualifier. I think the goal should be to have 2 teams. I know that would be difficult as the team leader is frequently struggling to find kids to fill the upper weights, but without goals you do not get anywhere.

The reason I say to start at the School Boy level addresses Shawn’s point. A lot of young kids (and their farthers/ coaches) have a real problem understanding how they get the take down and the other kid got 2 points and they only got one. Also, do we really need to teach little kids to throw the head lock and lock hands. I know some can handle it, not trying to start an argument. But if a young kid is not practicing this at least twice a week, do not take them to Freestyle state just for fun. Many will never want to come back.

* We need more opportunities in Kansas for kids to wrestle Freestyle/Greco. Prior to Freestyle/Greco state there are 2 tournaments in Kansas?? St. James and Baldwin. And, then 2 in Wichita afterwards. These styles are different. The kids need mat time prior to going to the major competitions.

* Explain how it will help in folkstyle. I believe summer wrestling HAS helped my son. I think freestyle makes kids a lot better on their feet (my son excluded). Additionally, by defending the gut, kids who wrestle these styles become difficult to score back points on, in my opinion. I am sure people who are actually coaches can give the advantages better than I can. Just look at the success of some of the summer wrestlers in HS state.

* We need to make Southern Plains a priority for our School Boys and up. It gives seating points for Cadets and Jrs for the duals. It is a great opportunity to face good kids from our surrounding states. However, it is expensive. One day off work for most of us. Two nights in a hotel. Maybe a Friday morning weigh-in would help and a change in locations, and not Denver??

* I know the people who put together the dual teams do a great job, in an environment where a commitment to wrestle in the duals appears meaningless, but would a qualifier for Cadet and Junior Duals help? Will started doing that with middle school duals, and it appears to be a big success. I am not complaining about the way the teams are put together - I just wonder if Will’s success can be duplicated.

* Cadet Duals is in Florida again, get started now with a plan to make it affordable or find an alternative. This is a training ground for Jr. Duals and Fargo. We shouldn’t miss 2 years.

Finally, I asked my son the question Coach Church asked, he had one answer, unlike his wordy dad, START EARLIER.

I do think Coach failed to point out on his #2 that a kid can do both – enjoy himself and have success (judged differently for each participant).

Finally, thanks to all who helped put this trip and season together. From my son’s perspective it was big success. He made friends and is still talking about it. Thanks!!!

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We sacrificed Cadet Duals to keep the price the same for Fargo. I personally thought this was a big mistake and I tried to get the cost advertised as $550 per kid if we could get 24 wrestlers to commit but it just didn't happen. I think it is time that the entire Fargo Budget is itemized and detailed so that everyone can see how much we spend on gear each year. Yea, kids go for $500 which is cheap compared to most states but how much do we spend on: coaches, coach gear, wrestler's gear, it is $75 per style entry fee, dorms, food, transportation, prep camp, etc. Gear should have been sacrificed and we should have been taking cadets to Florida. A pair of shorts, tshirt and singlets is all that these kids need. Do coaches really need anything beyond a tshirt?? I don't think so. I would rather see us paying our coaches. Heck we are even expected to furnish gear for our officials. That is the stupidest thing I have heard since I started helping with summer wrestling.

Coaching... No offense is meant but I am sure some will be taken. Three of the last four opponents Ryne wrestled were coached by: Zach Roberson, Max Askren, and John Mesenbrink (Ben Askren & Max Askren's HS coach as well as Ben's personal coach). The best kids are the kids who work the hardest and they should have the best coaching. Don't even give me any crap about "it doesn't matter who is in your corner". It does! That 15 minutes before you step on the mat is the most important time to have a coach especially when you reach rounds 5 and beyond. There is no way an AA contender should be looking for his coach when he walks onto the mat and it isn't acceptable for a match to start without a coach being in their corner. Fargo is about the big things (practice and preparation) and the little things (proper prematch warmup, mental preparation and visualization, coaches getting their wrestler ready for the critical matches, air conditioned rooms for a good night's rest, proper weight control and nutrition.) If you aren't going to train and take this tournament seriously you don't deserve the same attention and coaching experience as those who do, bottom line.

The AC situation...
Kids were actually called out by this statement "We have had wrestlers place here before when the dorms were hot." My kids were going to stay in my hotel room but were basically shamed into staying in the dorms because it is "team policy". That is crap! I paid $500 for Junior Duals, $675 for Southern Plains Camp, $150 for Southern Plains, $50 for Central Plains, $1175 for Fargo all to USA Wrestling (this doesn't count any personal expenses and the $150 I had to pay for admission at Fargo) to be told that my kids shouldn't stay in an air conditioned hotel room when it was 85 and 75 percent humidity. Honsetly, can anyone make sense out of that?? There is NO WAY your body can tolerate sleepless nights, workouts, tournament matches and perform at its peak. This rule has to change!

Further, if a coach tells a wrestler he is going to be his coach then he better dang well be there! There is nothing more disappointing to me than being lied to. Both to the parent and the wrestler...

We have to spread our coaching pretty thin because of the numbers we take to Fargo. That all sounds good until you consider that many of the wrestlers from Kansas roll off the couch and the only preperation they get is the McPherson Camp. Lots of kids go just to get the cool gear. I personally do not buy in to all of this gear. Do we really need to give a kid a gear bag every year? Ryne has five of them now... It is overkill and a waste. I think it is terrible when I see our kids that go 0-2 out on the sidewalk selling their gear! How many of their parents realize that they might be putting $200 back into their pocket from the $500 they spent to send their kid to Fargo. It shouldn't be about quantity but about quality.

I would like to see us set the price to go to Fargo at $600 and then let our wrestlers earn their way onto the team. $50 discount if you go to Southern Plains Camp. $25 if you wrestle in any USA regional tournament, $50 if you place. $50 if you compete on the Junior or Cadet Dual team. $50 off if you place in the top 3 at USA Folkstyle Nationals. $10 off for every regional training center practice you attend. If we want our kids to go to FS/GR state then reward the winners with a discount to Nationals instead of a jacket (at least give them the option) We also need to have more clinics and less tournaments or have the clinics on Friday evening, tournaments on Saturday and finish with a clinic session on Saturday evening and Sunday morning. We have to have more drilling and more basics being pushed. Our gut defense was atrocious this year!

1) Better coaching plan
2) More drilling and mat time between HS State and Fargo
3) Better preparation camp plan
4) More communication from leadership
5) Better housing for the team
6) Focus on winning not just taking 100 kids to Fargo
7) Budget to send dual teams not just buy cool gear


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Will, what’s your deal lately man, from being so negative to the Kansas coaches, to what you were talking about when I was sitting behind you in Oklahoma City. It seems to me that you should seek counseling from a local pastor or church elder to get things right in your life with the lord.
God bless,

Last edited by reverend randy; 08/04/11 01:40 AM.
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http://www.cephas-library.com/baptists_youth_pastor_illicit_sex.html

Rev Randy,

I have been checking you out on the internet...

Hope you get some help.

Will


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Now, Will in your earlier post you talk about not being able to stand being lied to but now it is ok for you to spread lies about me. And further more on this topic about bring home AA , I believe first there has to be love in the home before kids can perform on the mat. Maybe you should take this in, and look at the situation before blaming coaches.

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How am I to know if you are the Rev Randy in the article or some other Rev Randy? Speculation is not lieing. Plenty of love in my house. I didn't really blame coaching just the plan and process. It is a total package effort. I like all of the coaches on the staff, even the ones I don't know. They donate their time and try hard but that doesn't mean they all are a fit for Fargo.


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I read the infamous Will Cokeley post: My initial reaction was frustration and violent thoughts of how I was going to handle this. Then I had to remember how Christ would handle the situation and aI calmed down. I then said, "If nobody responds, then that would eat at him worse". But now that I gave it the 24 hour of thought I have this question:

1)Which coaches are not fit for Fargo?
a)Dennis Charbonneau
b)Tom Peterman
c)Russ Hermreck
d)Mike Church
e)Travis Keil
f)Zach Poague
g)Scott Reik
h)Clint Slyter
i)Adam Venegas
j)Brett Fiene
k)Brandon Jobe

Don't worry about offending any of us... You have already done that... So feel free to keep on the onslaught.

About Max Askren, Ben Askren, etc. On the mat, most of us probably would not last 20 seconds with them. But that matters NONE when it comes to coaching. I believe most of those guys listed are better coaches then guys you mention b/c we don't just coach the elite. We coach all levels of kids which I would bet most of those guys you mentioned don't do.

Now, you said that the best coaches should coach the best kids. No offense, but your youngest son did not fair well at Fargo. How would you have felt if he would of had less coaching than a placer. That's not how it works. As coaches, we coach all kids in front of us. Not just the upper level that make us look good. Some coaches have made a living off just coaching the best kids and ignoring the rest. I would like to see them get a room full of beginners and build them up. They can't.

Will, you are on about every USAWKS board that I can think of off the top of my head. This means that you are supposed to be working with the National Team Coaching Staff and Coordinators. That being said, it is 100% inappropriate for you to get on here and bash the people you are working with. You are a successful business man. Would that work in the business world. Getting on a public forum and bashing those you work with? There is a time and place for this and it's not on here! So, if you want to get on here and tear people apart, resign from all positions in USAWKS and then feel free to be a normal everyday Joe that talks smack. If your not willing to do that... find the proper time and place to have this discussion...Not on here.

This coaching staff was working on how to get better for next year before we left Fargo this year!!! We have had daily discussions and ideas about it. Do you think we were happy with 1 Freestyle AA in Cadet, 1 in Junior and 1 in Womens? NO!

You have made this a personal agenda, when that is not your job. You have a great son in Ryne. You were not happy with the outcome of his Junior Career. That's fine, but that does not mean you get on here and bash those who you work with. You need to work hard on separating personal life and business when it comes to USAWKS.

On a side note: Mike Medina is your sons coach. His brother Gonz Medina sells all of the gear to team Kansas. Gonz does a great job and gives us good pricing from what I hear. Do we really want to cut our business down 90% with Bluechip? I guess you can take that up with them.

I will end with this. You are the director of Southern Plains. I have heard nothing but negative feedback about Southern Plains camp for the past 2 years. This from coaches and athletes alike. You don't see any of us coaches on here bashing you for organization, coaches, training plans etc. Nope, not on a Public Forum.... Something to think about.

P.S. I really want to meet Reverend Randy! Seems like a good dude!

Last edited by FalconCoach; 08/04/11 08:56 PM.
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I like it when Will gets on here and informs the masses. I agree maybe we need to inject new life into this coaching staff. We have a lot of ex college wrestlers with freestyle and greco experience that would be a great addition to what we have now. The current bunch of coaches does no promotion for these events at all. They should be talking to high school kids and their coaches all season to drum up support for summer wrestling.Keep the young guys Slyter, Jobe ,Venegas, bring in some new young coaches like Nick Flynn and let some of the old dead wood slip away. Church your comment on cutting sales with bluechip by 90% so what if that happens, we shouldn't be concerned with giving Gonz business instead we should be increasing participation and keeping costs as low as possible to get kids interested. a couple of years ago one of your high school wrestlers lied about his age to wrestle cadets, It just amazes me that you didn't know how old one of your own wrestlers was, you should of resigned from usa wrestling on the spot. Keep it up Will there are some on here that like your input. Reverand Randy no pedophiles allowed on this board.

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Rassler,

Good point and since you know that whole situation and trail of documents I will resign in the morning. I will go back to fake/altered birth certificate school and be ready if my turn ever comes around again!

Thank you for your input and recommendations for the future. You are a gentleman and a scholar!

Keep putting in your two cents and I needed it. Maybe someday I will be good enough and smart enough to coach again!

It is done!!!!!

Oh, I had to edit this...I agree with you rassler about one thing...I like Slyter, Jobe and Venegas and think they are young hungry coaches... They are going to do great things... and I truly 100% mean that!

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I think the coaching staff that is in place is a fine one. We have some great young coaches and some vetaran coaches as well. I think that we have a the right fit. I am not old, dead, or wood. I also know that many of these coaches do promote the freestyle/greco season. I can speak for Church and I. We try to spread the word the best that we can. The KC guys have the KCTC, and I believe that Jobe also has his room. Church runs a great training site for USAW, somewhere that I and Coach Fiene also help out. MANY conversations at Fargo were on what can we do to make Kansas better. I believe there are some great ideas out there. Church at I talked at great length on the way home on what we plan to do in the Metro area along with Coach Fiene to get better. Rassler would you know every single one of your athletes birth dates? Sometimes an athlete needs to be held accountable to do the right thing. I think everyone who knows Coach Church would agree that him resigning would NOT be for the greater good of Kansas Wretling. Thats just my 2 cents really.


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Originally Posted By: FalconCoach
I read the infamous Will Cokeley post: My initial reaction was frustration and violent thoughts of how I was going to handle this. Then I had to remember how Christ would handle the situation and aI calmed down. I then said, "If nobody responds, then that would eat at him worse". But now that I gave it the 24 hour of thought I have this question:

1)Which coaches are not fit for Fargo?
a)Dennis Charbonneau
b)Tom Peterman
c)Russ Hermreck
d)Mike Church
e)Travis Keil
f)Zach Poague
g)Scott Reik
h)Clint Slyter
i)Adam Venegas
j)Brett Fiene
k)Brandon Jobe

Don't worry about offending any of us... You have already done that... So feel free to keep on the onslaught.

About Max Askren, Ben Askren, etc. On the mat, most of us probably would not last 20 seconds with them. But that matters NONE when it comes to coaching. I believe most of those guys listed are better coaches then guys you mention b/c we don't just coach the elite. We coach all levels of kids which I would bet most of those guys you mentioned don't do.

Now, you said that the best coaches should coach the best kids. No offense, but your youngest son did not fair well at Fargo. How would you have felt if he would of had less coaching than a placer. That's not how it works. As coaches, we coach all kids in front of us. Not just the upper level that make us look good. Some coaches have made a living off just coaching the best kids and ignoring the rest. I would like to see them get a room full of beginners and build them up. They can't.

Will, you are on about every USAWKS board that I can think of off the top of my head. This means that you are supposed to be working with the National Team Coaching Staff and Coordinators. That being said, it is 100% inappropriate for you to get on here and bash the people you are working with. You are a successful business man. Would that work in the business world. Getting on a public forum and bashing those you work with? There is a time and place for this and it's not on here! So, if you want to get on here and tear people apart, resign from all positions in USAWKS and then feel free to be a normal everyday Joe that talks smack. If your not willing to do that... find the proper time and place to have this discussion...Not on here.

This coaching staff was working on how to get better for next year before we left Fargo this year!!! We have had daily discussions and ideas about it. Do you think we were happy with 1 Freestyle AA in Cadet, 1 in Junior and 1 in Womens? NO!

You have made this a personal agenda, when that is not your job. You have a great son in Ryne. You were not happy with the outcome of his Junior Career. That's fine, but that does not mean you get on here and bash those who you work with. You need to work hard on separating personal life and business when it comes to USAWKS.

On a side note: Mike Medina is your sons coach. His brother Gonz Medina sells all of the gear to team Kansas. Gonz does a great job and gives us good pricing from what I hear. Do we really want to cut our business down 90% with Bluechip? I guess you can take that up with them.

I will end with this. You are the director of Southern Plains. I have heard nothing but negative feedback about Southern Plains camp for the past 2 years. This from coaches and athletes alike. You don't see any of us coaches on here bashing you for organization, coaches, training plans etc. Nope, not on a Public Forum.... Something to think about.

P.S. I really want to meet Reverend Randy! Seems like a good dude!


Any coach who doesn't think it matters who is in the corner. Any coach who doesn't want to spend the time, prematch, with the wrestler. Any coach who wouldn't step aside if a wrestler wanted a different coach in their corner. Any coach who would tell a wrestler he was going to be in his corner for every match but then doesn't show up without telling the wrestler he wasn't going to be there. Any coach who doesn't think sleeping in an air conditioned room wouldn't give your body better recovery for the next day's battles. Any coach who doesn't care as much as the wrestler does about the outcome of the match. Any coach who was offended by my post.

And seriously, do you really think no responses would have eaten at me? Nothing will eat at me more than three empty trips home from Fargo, one win away from the podium. I have two more boys and I want to improve their chances. Either you are on board or you can get left behind.

Illinois is the model for success right now. Who on your list is our Sean Bormet? I am just asking...

FYI Scott wasn't there this year but he is fit for Fargo.

Also, I said "not a fit for Fargo" which is different than "fit for Fargo". Fit for Fargo would imply that they were not capable or not prepared. Not a fit just means that their style or approach doesn't work at this tournament.

You left Grater off your list... probably the best fit since he has Won there and knows what it takes.

As far as SP goes. I send out email, solicit feedback from parents and wrestlers, talk to everyone I know to improve it. Jobe and Grater are on that staff. Neither one of them have fired back any negative feedback. One of your athletes has coached there the last two years and I hear nothing from him. Instead of taking a cheap, blind shot tell me what you know. I am all ears.

I am not easily offended and I am NOT going to agree with your philosophy. OVERTIME wrestling is the key to Illinois success. Russ loves Sean Bormet and they coach the elite seperately from the others. Summer wrestling is not school wrestling. Those who worked the hardest deserve the best coaching.

As far as Reese is concerned, when he puts in the time and effort that his brother has then he will see the results. When he does better then he will deserve better. I am more than fine with my suggestion being applied to him. I am not a socialist! You earn what you get. FAIR is where you buy cotton candy.

You started this post and you asked for feedback, I am giving it to you. I just don't sugar coat it, never have an never will. You can run for my position and take over SP Camp, Middle School Duals, Schoolboy Duals, and show me up. I am sure you are far better equipped both personally and professionally than I am. If you run I will withdraw because I wouldn't want to suffer the humiliation of the landslide of votes you will surely garner with your superior skills, philosophies and attitude.

Gonz and the gear. Again, I am not a socialist. Gonz can earn his money through being a good business man. If the stuff is great then the kids can buy it with their money. USAWKS subsidizes Fargo and I don't agree with buying $20,000 worth of gear when $6500 would be sufficient. "The kids like it and that is why some of them sign up for Fargo." You don't have a problem with that???

You know that many of this staff talks crap behind my back and this summer some crossed the line and did it in front of my boys. Man up and say it to my face. Don't lie to me as I will not lie to you. I believe in transparency. If you can't post it on this forum then don't be a c.s. and say it behind closed doors in a meeting. The staff isn't the only group capable of working on better ways to do things but it has become a bit too "good ole boyish" from my perspective as no one else is worthy of being on the staff or contributing to the improvements.

Church, your job isn't to tell me what my job is. Feel free to openly criticize any and everything I have done that you don't agree with. You can do on this forum, on tv, on the radio, in the USA Today, I will read it and figure out how to fix it or quit. The forum is a great place for airing things out, you just used it as such a mechanism but you blasted me for doing so. I post because I care, bottom line. We need more people with passion and who are willing to care as much as I do.

Please let me know if you intend to run for FS/GR Director so I can spend my campaign budget on something else. At least I promptly return phone calls and emails and I don't lie.


Last edited by Cokeley; 08/05/11 07:04 AM.

Will Cokeley
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The next opponent is Devin Bera from Wisconsin. Kingsley knew nothing about him and really didn't care to know anything about his accomplishments. He would prefer to experience it, rather than hear about him. Bera made it into the second period, but was pinned at the 15-second mark. After this bout, one of Brandon's coaches, Jared Lawrence, an NCAA champion and four-time All-American at the University of Minnesota, came over to show him a move called the "West Point." He told BK he wants to see him use it today.


An excerpt from http://www.intermatwrestle.com/articles/8762


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Well, well...

I have to say that I am personal friends with both Mike Church and Will Cokeley. Both are valuable assets to Kansas wrestling.

I have always viewed this forum as a family discussion. A place where we can roll our sleeves up and talk candidly about our praises and concerns. Most of the time it is difficult to get complete clarity in writing but occasionally you hit the nail on the head. As pointed as the previous exchange was, it was nice to see passionate wrestling servants "airing it out". That's how you get things done. That's how you manufacture change.

We have all let our emotions get the best of us. What makes me smile is that I know both of these guys can let it rip and still high five each other for the positive cause of Kansas wrestling!

It's a privilege and a blessing!

- Chief


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Originally Posted By: Chief Renegade
Well, well...

I have to say that I am personal friends with both Mike Church and Will Cokeley. Both are valuable assets to Kansas wrestling.

I have always viewed this forum as a family discussion. A place where we can roll our sleeves up and talk candidly about our praises and concerns. Most of the time it is difficult to get complete clarity in writing but occasionally you hit the nail on the head. As pointed as the previous exchange was, it was nice to see passionate wrestling servants "airing it out". That's how you get things done. That's how you manufacture change.

We have all let our emotions get the best of us. What makes me smile is that I know both of these guys can let it rip and still high five each other for the positive cause of Kansas wrestling!

It's a privilege and a blessing!

- Chief


Good points chief.

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Originally Posted By: Cokeley

Please let me know if you intend to run for FS/GR Director so I can spend my campaign budget on something else. At least I promptly return phone calls and emails and I don't lie.


I do not intend to run for FS/GR Director as I plan on spending my time on running as the Republican Candidate in the 2012 election. I just don't feel I am going to have the time to run the country and Kansas Summer Wrestling. Feel free to send your campaign budget to "Church for President" campaign fund though!

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Whew the sparks are a flyin...........
I think I am the oldest coach on both staffs, so if I am the old dead wood you are referring to I would be glad to step down if need be.

My two cents:

1. Maybe we need to lower the gear supply to lower the costs; I use to be in charge of the gear and enjoyed helping Gonz design and decide what gear we would have. But I do not think the gear has anything to do with it. All the other good states have nice gear. Some of their kids are only going to get gear and trade it.

2. Planning - we need to help kids to do a better job of planning their summer training. We need to help them make calendars of what competitions they plan to do and what practices/clinics/camps they plan to attend. In the HayDay of the East Kansas club those kids did not just show up. They came to work and improve on certain skills (i.e. gutwrench, gutwrench defense, clinches, and takedown finishes)

Ending for now but plan to talk about more, it was very discouraging attending the Sunday training camps to have 10 -16 kids there at St. James and even less at some of the other locations.

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I have seen many of these coaches in action. Reik is the man! Church is great! Slyter may be a little fruity.....kidding, but not really. All these guys take time away from their families to support Kansas Wrestling and should be commended for it.

These coaches are put in a slightly unique and tough position as they do not coach most the kids wrestling on a regular basis. Knowing what a wrestler needs to work on is easy. Getting him to actually do it, can take months or longer. So to say team Kansas is horrible at gut defense is one thing. To say there defense is horrible because of coaching and we need to get new coaches is REDICULOUS. A 2 - 3 day camp before fargo is not long enough. I know some of these states are training a full week or longer together before they step on the Fargo mats. If costs do need to increase (whatever). Let's have a longer camp.

It would be cool to see our club teams somehow get more unified. In Wichita for example it seems there are 5-6 (maybe more) Freestyle/greco clubs all working out seperate from one another. I do know that sometimes the numbers at these practices can be pretty pathetic. If they could combine to maybe 1 or 2 clubs, numbers would be better, and kids would get better competition at practice. The word gets out that this is the place to be and BAM! You've got a Bada$$ club.

Just thought but what the hell do I know.

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Lazyman 1... I am actually working on stuff to combine workouts in Wichita so it's nice to hear some input in regards to that. I would like to start a MWWTC (Mid-West Wrestling Training Center). Somehow make the cost as minimal as possible (Such as a USA Card) and then optional gear and singlets. I think KCTC is a great idea and great way to get kids in the room to train. I just think $200 for a club fee is high. But they might have a reason for those cost. I am not judging them, but F/S and Greco has to be as low a cost as possible to keep kids involved. And if I can save them $150 to use towards Southern Plains, Duals or Fargo... then that would be the goal.

I would gladly donate my time to coach this group. However, March-May is hard with the restraints KSHSAA has on us! I would need to figure out what others do. I also would love to coach side by side with ALL coaches from the Mid-West or anybody else and learn together, from each other etc. It would also be great to bring in clinicians such as World Team members etc to do mini-Clinics that touch things like gut defense, handfighting and sparring, lifts, etc.

I am going to do what I can... I just hope I can get everybody within driving distance to get involved with me as well. Again, my goal is not to be the "HEAD COACH" of this type of program. Instead, it is to work side by side with HS Coaches, Club Coaches, Moms and Dads, and athletes to make Kansas wrestling great!

I believe it would also be great to stay in close Contact with our friends from the East and West and work on practice plans and techniques. Maybe one day I drive up to KC and do a clinic (For Free) and in turn Brandon Jobe comes to Wichita and does a clinic (For Free). etc.

We are capable of being great. Rassler was wrong in one fashion about thing for sure. I beat the streets hard for summer wrestling. Up until last year, I held FREE training centers for NHSCA VA Beach Senior Nationals. We would train 3-4 days a week from the end of high school until Nationals and have huge rooms of kids training for this. I did them from 2005-2010. However, my room was destroyed and I currently have no facility until December as they are rebuilding and remodeling our room to a 2 1/2 mat length room with restrooms, drinking fountains, and plenty of space to hold large effective training sessions.

I am not resigning from the National Team b/c of the birthday incident in Fargo. That was a horrible, embarrassing situation, but a learning experience as well which put in place some necessary safeguards from it ever happening again. Instead, I am going to work side by side with All of those coaches listed above, Mike Juby, Will Cokely, Big Randy, Eric Johnson, Russ Hermreck, Danny Grater (who I accidentally left off but love to death), etc. I don't know a person who is in this game for the wrong reason honestly! We are going to get it right and we will improve. Feel free to email me or private message me with any extra input you can think of that might help put these processes into place! It's time to become a true, "Team Kansas". Learn from our team and personal mistakes and failures and get it right!

I also propose that in early March, right after high school state or maybe during Kids state etc, we meet as a National Team staff and air it all out, come up with game plans, ideas, etc that will do nothing but make us better!

I won't apologize for any long rants or ideas. I guess if you really don't like them, you don't have to keep reading smile Hopefully we all realize we are always students of this game and never have it mastered! We will all continue to grow and get better and for that I will promise, "Team KS will be better next year at the National Level".

Have a good one my wrestling family!

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Here is a training program I set up for Neil Erisman back in 2003. Like Church said it is going to take all of us not just a few. But we also need wrestlers who are willing to commit to the training it takes to be good/great.

If we become better at the gutwrench we will get better at defending it; its simple logic. Please read through it and give me your thoughts and let me THANK all those involved back then one more time, I could have never done it alone. I am willing to set up developmental systems for kids again if they are willing to put in the work. I don't charge a price or let us say money I just don't want my time wasted the kids have to be willing to pay the price Not the DAD's.

Guaranteed Gut Wrench
By Tom Peterman


The number one used move in the par terre position is the gut wrench. Freestyle or Greco-Roman the gut wrench is the go to move once you get up top. In this day and age of guaranteed ads for weight loss, strength training, or even financial freedom, I am guarantying a better gut wrench in one simple summer. Well maybe six weeks of hard work is more accurate of a description.
The circumstances I was faced with as a coach during the summer of 2003 was having a national caliber wrestler who was good on his feet but was just above average in the par terre position. He was able to turn most people with his gut wrench, regular or trapped arm but would have difficulty with the move against the best. It would work all the way up to the medal rounds or finals. Since takedowns are hard to come by against the best we figured we wanted to set a goal to be able to gut every opponent.
We believed that if he could stay close in the takedown department and win the par terre battle, the war of Fargo could be won. There would be many factors involved in making this become a reality. Starting with technical education we increased our knowledge by watching video, going to the OTC, and getting a few tips from some great wrestlers. Second, we worked on increasing strength and endurance or the physical part of the task. Last, whenever we had practice we made sure of spending at least 1/3 to one half of it in the par terre position.


Technical Input
I started by reviewing gut wrench techniques from the USAWrestling Coach’s Syllabus II with Bruce Burnett, Tape 1: Freestyle – “Par Terre Wrestling”. I then started on videos from camps I have gone to in the past. These ranged from the 1992 Olympic Camp that was at Rockhurst College in Kansas City, MO to the 3 Joe Seay Camps I have attended in the Kansas City area. Clinicians showing gut wrench technique were Kenny Monday, Gary Mayab, and Tom Erickson. Like Joe Seay says, “If you want to be the best you have to learn from the best.” Last camp I will mention is the 2000 Olympic Gold camp at Blue Springs, MO with Bruce Burnett. Two of the clinicians at the camp were Sammy Henson and Lincoln McIIravy.
This leads me into the next educational device being the trip to Colorado Springs for four days of training at the Olympic Training Center (OTC). Lincoln was the developmental coach at the time and it was great to see my wrestler working hard and learning in such an awesome atmosphere. Other clinicians at the OTC that week were Gary Mayab, Doc Bennett and Ike Anderson. This was right before the Cadet National Duals so it was in great timing to try out a few of the things he learned at the OTC in Greeley that weekend.
Last are the tips and practice partners the good Lord allowed him to work with that summer. We are both members of the East Kansas Wrestling Club in Overland Park, Kansas. This club has a great tradition of producing champions. Coach Kevin Klemm who is a coach for the Dave Schultz Wrestling Club has had a tremendous positive effect on wrestling in East Kansas. He helps with Eric Akin who also came to practices and helped my young wrestler. Other coaches and wrestlers who played a big part were Chris McCormick, Shawn Bunch, and Joe Johnston. All are NCAA Division 1 wrestlers. High school practice partners that helped were Tyler McCormick, Stuart Boogart, Conner Fitzgerald, and Ryne Sondregger. Like the African proverb says, “it takes a village to raise a child”, well it takes a group of people to help produce a champion. I would like to thank all of the people responsible. Thank you, all of you.


Physical Training Regiment
You can say that this is the meat and potatoes of working towards a better gut wrench. Without the other two parts though how could we have known if he was getting better or doing the right training. We made a big chart to put on the wall to keep track of progress and make sure all exercises were done each week. It is also great to have something materialistically visible to see what you have done for preparation before you head off to the big show.
For endurance the main exercise was hanging on a 65-pound punching bag for an allotted time. We started out at 30 seconds and worked our way up to two minutes, which is what a Cadet period last. The first time was 5 sets, 30 seconds each and at the end in July we were doing 10 sets of 2 minutes each. One of the three keys of a good gut wrench as stipulated by Bruce Burnett in the Coach’s syllabus tape is to maintain pressure on the lock throughout the gut wrench move.
The bag hanging was to simulate constant pressure for a whole period. I felt this would give my wrestler the physical endurance but also the mental courage to go hard for gut wrenches when on top. I didn’t want him to dread the possibility of not scoring and then getting put back up into the neutral position very arm weary and not able to defend off attacks.
The other two keys Coach Burnett prescribes are to keep your chest tight to your opponent’s back and keep your elbows in. Strength and endurance was increased for these two situations by mostly weight training. Dumbbell work, which focused on the shoulder and lattimus dorsi muscles were performed to help keep the elbows in and forearm work to help keep the chest tight to your opponent’s back. One other exercise that was performed was gut wrench dips. In a Roman chair put your elbows on the pads, your hands on your chest and lower and raise yourself by your elbows. It is kind of like doing the funky chicken with your body weight making your elbows go up and out. Stay in control throughout the movement. Come up forcing elbows in tight with the body and go down slow to the point where your upper arm is parallel to the ground.
We also worked on the lower part of the body to help in loading up the opponent, being able to roll and hold or roll and arch to finish the gut wrench in good position, so not to be scored upon defensively. Mountain climbers, hip heist, and squats were all good exercises used to increase strength and endurance in the hip region. One of the best drills that I felt helped a tremendous was a good bridge routine. Besides strengthening the neck, it also helped strengthen the lower back while improving balance and power in the hips.


Par Terre Position
Allotting time for drilling and wrestling in the par terre position can be difficult sometimes. Top wrestlers get bored and frustrated when they cannot turn their opponent. Bottom wrestlers just want to get out of there and with no official to let you up maintaining a good defense can be exhausting. Creating some rules while live wrestling can easily solve incorporating more par terre action during practice. Other factors that can help are situation games and starting live wrestling periods in the par terre position.
I have a basic rule when going live takedowns with a partner or during old man, iron man, 3 on 1 rotation, what ever you want to call it. Once you take your opponent down the bottom man counts to ten out loud. If he gets to ten without getting turned he is let back up. If the top man turns him, the bottom man has to start over counting again from 1, once he gets back to his belly. If the top man scores 10 points in a row, just like in a technical fall, he lets the bottom man up. This helps keep the action going and the wrestlers thinking once a takedown is scored.
I like the relentless style that Dan Gable has instilled in the Iowa Hawkeyes. Great hand fighting while pushing and battling into their opponents but why stop after the takedown. To many times do wrestlers let golden opportunities fly by because they were too busy celebrating on a takedown they had just obtained. Each point you score in the top position is one less takedown you have to earn to score points in the match. Don’t rest and don’t allow your opponent time to establish a defense on bottom. Score on the man you just mentally broke while also physically taking him down. While being discouraged from getting taken down your opponent may also be off balance or out of position. A prime time to score.




Conclusion
I have had the great privilege of coaching this young man since he was five years old. While experiencing many great triumphant championships and disappointing defeats he has always impressed me with a great work ethic. I knew if I could organize, simplify, and instill the work needed, so as to be in the position of winning a Cadet Freestyle National Championship this young had the guts to do it. Congratulations Big Dog, you did it! Neil Erisman, you are a Cadet National Champ!

Last I would also like to Thank Scott Reick, he helped out alot later when Neil got too big and strong for me to go live and scramble with.


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Jumping to the thought of paying the price! Our only double AA junior was Javier Vieyra. It was no secret to me. He paid the price, he found the time. He went out to San Francisco for the Greco World Duals he came home and went straight to Southern Plains and did Greco only because he has a job at Red Lobster there in Salina. He did duals and he trained all summer long. He found the time and did it while working and paying his way with hard work. I am so impressed with this young man. We keep asking dads and coaches, we need to get some input from the wrestlers they are the key to the process of success.

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Fire everyone, give Will total authority to reshape Kansas

wrestling. I would imagine that a lot more opportunities would open up for the kids in Kansas, Rassler was right it is time to prune out the old dead wood, Kansas needs young hungry coaches not a bunch of guys looking for a free trip to fargo. Who cares if Blue Chip doesn't maintain its current level of business with Kansas wrestling I didn't think we were here to subsidize Gonzs business. All of the coaches who read this thread and got angry are the problem. Quit B@@ching and promote this sport or step aside and let the young guys take over.


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Young Dumb and full of .....

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Don't get me wrong we have some good young coaches but just because they are young does not make them good. They are good because they are putting in their time getting better what are you doing Rufus?

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I am working on my comeback dont mess with me or the freighttrain will run you over


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Originally Posted By: Rufus
Fire everyone, give Will total authority to reshape Kansas

wrestling. I would imagine that a lot more opportunities would open up for the kids in Kansas, Rassler was right it is time to prune out the old dead wood, Kansas needs young hungry coaches not a bunch of guys looking for a free trip to fargo. Who cares if Blue Chip doesn't maintain its current level of business with Kansas wrestling I didn't think we were here to subsidize Gonzs business. All of the coaches who read this thread and got angry are the problem. Quit B@@ching and promote this sport or step aside and let the young guys take over.


Bunch of guys looking for a free trip to Fargo? Yes that must be it! What a clever bunch of conmen we have here, putting in all that time and effort to spend an Expense free week in beautiful Fargo North Dakota, Americas playground.Thanks Rufas for exposing these scam artists

Last edited by Ben Dover; 08/06/11 01:03 AM.

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This started with a well written and thought out post on how to improve. Even though some are trying to keep it on track, some are trying to degenerated it into another version of ‘The Housewives of Kansas’ with everyone watching hoping to see some cleavage or someone say something bad about another one of our fellow wrestling people. This is too bad. It needs to stay on its original purpose. Insteading of addressing the comments in particular, I would just say this. As a parent who has probably sat and watched as many or more practices over the last 2 years as any other parent and as someone who was on the floor as a volunteer at Fargo this year, I believe the criticism of the coaches is uncalled for. I think we have a very good group. I understand there might be bigger names, but that does not necessary make them better. I was really impressed with Tom Peterman (who was assigned to my son) during Fargo. I had never seen him coach mat side before and was impressed. So, stay in their Tom. In fact, my son really likes this group of coaches. He feels comfortable with them and believes they help him. You have to wonder why anyone would want to step up if they are going to undergo this after giving alot of their own time to coach our kids.

Is there room for improvement, yes, but Coach Church stated that in his #5 on this original post. Getting out of the dorms might be a good suggestion. I understand many kids, who were not use to the heat, got very little sleep. However, was this an unusual year???

Finally, leave the gear alone. My kid loves it and so do most of the kids that go. They are proud that Kansas has some of the best around. In my opinion, they have earned it from a long, hard season.

PS: Please let Doug know the 'Housewives of Kansas' is not a show about novice moms.

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Originally Posted By: FalconCoach
After 5 years in Fargo as a national team coach and reflecting each and every year what can be done to improve our results and make us a top 5 team in the nation I want to know what can be done to make this happen. One can make excuses of numbers in the state,etc. However, it is going to have to be an effort from North to South, East to West to make this happen. By no means am I the all knowing but from I see, the following needs to happen:

#1)Training must begin in March and continue until the National Tournament in July. I am not saying 5 days a week for 5 months. But Mat time must be a priority a couple times a week. Not just any mat time, but working on USA Wrestlings designed technique to become successful.

#2)Treat Fargo like it is: A National Tournament. Too many kids attending do not take it as serious as it is. It's the toughest tournament in the nation. It's not band camp, it's a national tournament. We do not go there to hang out with friends, sell gear, eat in the cafeteria, oh and then wrestle a little bit. We go there to compete against the best in the country and athletes need to realize this and focus on this to be successful.

#3)Weight classes: Plan on going to the lowest weight your body will allow for both styles. Many of the top kids are coming down another weight class from high school. That is why you never stop training, dieting etc. It's the biggest tournament alive and you have to treat it like it. Also, plan on remaining at that weight for both styles. Too many kids want to bump up after greco b/c they don't want to put out the effort of pulling weight again. This is wrong and only in very few cases can you be successful and become an All-American at this. You are in Fargo to bring home trophies and get better... Choose a weight, train for that weight, get it down early, and stick to it for 7 days of wrestling.

#4) We also must remember what we are: We are team Ks. We must get rid of the mindset of "I am not working out with other teams" or as coaches "I train these kids only" etc. We must be willing to work together and make it possible for us to train together more often. Steel does sharpen steel. However, we must also make an effort to get those who are not quite there to the point of being an All-American.

#5) As coaches, we must all be open to new technique, training habits, etc. Our way is not the only way. If it was, we would be the best in the Nation. We are not. We must all be willing to take time to learn, study, and be students of this sport. I personally have so much to learn and I owe it to athletes I train to find as many ways possible to make them better. We don't do this for money we all know. We do this b/c we were raised doing this, we love it, we probably don't know any other way and we want to give it back because we appreciate the experiences wrestling has given us. But until we make ourselves better and change the mindset of today's athlete, we will be on a treadmill going nowhere!

Good luck all of Kansas this fall and I am looking forward to seeing you all in the Winter, spring and summer for "Wrestling Season" smile

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Thank You John
and yes just like Javier you guys paid a price; Jared with his hard practices and preparation and you driving him from Levenworth to Olathe and St. James. He was not given that Stop Sign he EARNED IT!

Oh by the way Rufus who ever you are, remember I'm the old dog I grew up on All-Star Wrtestling, its the Pork Chop not the Freight Train and you need to find Handsome Harley Race and Danny Little Bear to start your come back.

Good Luck to all and I still would like some input on the Gutwrench development we need to get our state into.

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Here's a recommendation that I would like to see...

Problem: As a club coach, if you don't get a chance to go to Fargo, Junior/Cadet/Schoolboy duals you don't get a chance to see the latest technique. How other states are wrestling etc. Therefore at the club level (which is the basis from which our state teams are built) we potentially aren't teaching the most current technique. If you are fortunate enough to live near Kansas City or Witchita this get mitigated a little because we can attend the different training sessions with the state coaches. We get on this board every year and talk about it but frankly it doesn't help the club coaches that are trying to coach the younger kids in this stuff. It would be nice if we did a clinic or something after Fargo so the rest of the coaches could learn.

Recommendation: Develop coaches clinics where folks can come and learn from the coaches that coach at the national events. This could do a couple of things....

1. Allow the state coaching staff to impart a baseline of technique that gets taught throughout the state.
2. Get more clubs supporting and competing in freestyle/greco.

We could align them somewhat with the regional training center concept. I would also recommend that we do a set of DVDs that shows the technique and how to teach it. This would also include some drills. Anyone who attends the coaches clinic would get a free set of these DVDs. That way coaches who have not wrestled freestyle/greco could review them at their leisure and use them in their practice rooms.

In my opinion, if we get club coaches teaching, encouraging, and promoting freestyley/greco then we will get the younger kids starting to wrestle those styles more. If we get the younger kids working in those styles then they should be more proficient when they get to the older levels and the national level tournaments.

Shawn Budke

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Could not agree more... That is a great recommendation Coach Budke!
Keep em coming! USAWKS

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Sorry Church, but if Herman Cain is the candidate, he gets my vote. If he isn't around, Michelle Bachman gets it. For her beliefs, and for her looks........I know one of the two that you can't compete with her on.............

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The freight train was his finishing move, which was triggered by something similar to the Incredible Hulk's anger problem. Endure unimaginable violent punishment, then something clicks...........

The Pork chops were just the "vicious" slaps he wore his opponent down with.

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Southern Plains attendance would double if the Gross Coliseum would install air conditioning..........

Sounds like Fargo needs to do the same. If you are sleeping in hot dorm room, your body can never get ahead of the dehydration...........

I haven't spent much time thinking about it, but after helping set up and tear down the FSGR tourneys in Andale this summer, and seeing the pathetic attendance, I was totally frustrated. A tourney that close to Wichita should have had 150-200 wrestlers minimum. Instead I believe it was in the 60-80 range.

What is eventually going to happen is what is happening in Illinois, where the kids that want to be good, are going to have to drive to the Overtime training center to get the partners and coaching they need. Right now it seems like if practice isn't a block away, or parents can't find someone else to take their kids, they aren't much interested in pushing their kids into it. That goes back to the kids running the household in today's society. "Dad, I'm no good at FS GR, I don't want to" "OK son, whatever you say, now, do you want me to go get you another popsicle?" Until we get parents that will MAKE (yes I said it) their kids do it, we're swimming against the current.

We have some parents that are like that, but not nearly enough. How many great wrestlers do you know that have parents that are "ok honey, just try your hardest" type of people? Corner one of the Illinois, New Jersey, Ohio, Pennsylvania parents and ask them what the REQUIRE of their kids. You'll shake your head in disbelief. I am an absolute pantywaist dad compared to some of these parents.

I'm not saying we have bad parents, but I am saying that we don't have enough parents willing to take the chance on their kid not liking them by pushing them.....And in these same parents' defense, how do we expect to increase interest in our sport, when the largest showcase of FSGR wrestling that we see in this area, at Southern Plains, requires these parents to sit in a muggy, hot gymnasium, for 3 days?

My two cents worth..........

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One thing about the dorms at Fargo. Kansas is not the only team to stay in these dorms. I would say the majority of teams stay at the dorms. It has always been this way. You bring a fan and tough it out. I can only imagine the headache and extra cost of getting a hotel for everyone and supplying meals for everyone offsite. Cost just doubled for team Kansas. Not to mention our numbers are already low.

Using the dorms as an excuse or contributer as to why a wrestler was beaten - Seriously... Thats just life! Get tough, this is wrestling. Back in the day when I was a young lad wrestling at Fargo and was beaten out. The last thought on my mind was - well the dorms were too hot, poor me. This kind of goes back to the mentality Church was talking about orginially.

On the other side, if a parent wants to take their child into their own hands while at the tourny. Then that is the families right to do so. Let's face it this is not a High School wrestling team and even then it is borderline OK. If my kid wanted to stay in the hotel with me for a night and I knew Kansas Coaches might have a problem with it. I would have just done it and dealt with the coach the next morning, without my kid being involved.

Peace Out

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I was aiming more towards FSGR participation, not excuses for losing. Pointing out little things that hack people off, turn people off, run people off, and hurt our sport.........

Is the Division 1 NCAA championships wrestled in an oven? No, they try to make it comfortable for fans............And if there aren't going to be fans, there aren't going to be very many participants either.

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Studies have found that in general, the optimal temperature for sleep is quite cool, around 60 to 68 degrees Fahrenheit.

How Air Temperature Affects Your Sleep
Experts agree the temperature of your sleeping area and how comfortable you feel in it affect how well and how long you snooze. Why? “When you go to sleep, your set point for body temperature -- the temperature your brain is trying to achieve -- goes down,” says H. Craig Heller, PhD, professor of biology at Stanford University, who wrote a chapter on temperature and sleep for a medical textbook. “Think of it as the internal thermostat.” If it’s too cold, as in Roy’s case, or too hot, the body struggles to achieve this set point.

That mild drop in body temperature induces sleep. Generally, Heller says, “if you are in a cooler [rather than too-warm] room, it is easier for that to happen.” But if the room becomes uncomfortably hot or cold, you are more likely to wake up, says Ralph Downey III, PhD, chief of sleep medicine at Loma Linda University and one of the specialists treating Roy.

He explains that the comfort level of your bedroom temperature also especially affects the quality of REM (rapid eye movement) sleep, the stage in which you dream.

What’s the Best Temperature for Sleeping?
Recommending a specific range is difficult, Downey and Heller say, because what is comfortable for one person isn’t for another (explaining how Roy’s wife slept blissfully in the chilly 60-degree room). While a typical recommendation is to keep the room between 65 and 72 degrees Fahrenheit, Heller advises setting the temperature at a comfortable level, whatever that means to the sleeper.

Roy plans to keep a close eye on the thermostat, even if the heat bills are a bit higher.

There are other strategies for creating ideal sleeping conditions, too. Experts from the American Academy of Sleep Medicine, for instance, advise thinking of a bedroom as a cave: It should cool, quiet, and dark. (Bats follow this logic and are champion sleepers, getting in 16 hours a day.) Be wary of memory foam pillows, which feel good because they conform closely to your body shape -- but may make you too hot. And put socks on your feet, as cold feet, in particular, can be very disruptive to sleep.


Will Cokeley
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sleep Deprivation is a wonderful thing ( i have quadruplet daughters- now 17- but back in the day...I cant remember...)

We always have to over come adversity in life and in wrestling. That is what makes wrestling so great.

The hot dorms and interuption of sleep is a slippery slope for a reason for poor preformance.
How many of the AA at fargo slept in the dorms?


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It may be a slippery slope but if you have a choice why would you choose to make it more difficult? It is not about excuses but more about how do you improve your chances. That is what the post is about. How do we improve. Someone said it earlier, if a wrestler's parents are there why in the world wouldn't our state organization embrace letting a wrestler stay with his parents? Why would the coaches shame a wrestler who wanted to stay in a room with AC when it was so hot and humid in the dorms? There is absolutely no common sense explanation. There is no argument that an athlete will not be at his peak if he has had to endure several nights of those conditions. Call it an excuse or just call it the facts. The top three teams did NOT stay in the dorms.


Will Cokeley
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Maybe we should create a position for a guy to, right before the kansas wrestler goes on the mat, to slap him on the back of the head to knock his momma's teet out of his mouth so heis ready to wrassle. Maybe I am just too old school for this mentality. Tough kids win and not as tough kids sometimes dont. I have had my tail kicked and it was because the other guy was better than me. When I got tired of getting my but kicked, I worked harder and won more. We can say what we want- but a kid not used to AC, out hauling hay, getiin in a little trouble on a Friday night is a kid that is gonna win alot of times when all training opportunities are equal. So yes Will I do agree with you, as a parent its my job to make sure my child is tough enough to compete at the level that I as a parent wish- like in other states.

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We have to get FSGR participation to increase, in order for our state to do better. I mentioned the two tourneys at Andale this year that hardly anyone showed up for. There were very few competitive matches at those tourneys. How does a kid get better, if the other good kids don't show up?

Contrary to what some people think, we need each other to get better. It is the reason we have open room nights at our practices during folkstyle season. I know it makes our kids better, and I know it makes the kids that come over better.

We have to have the same mentality during FSGR season. Someone earlier mentioned that we have too many FSGR teams in the Wichita area. That is a good point.

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We just need more of the training sessions, I believe the kids that want to get better will show up to wrestle. Its like anything else the more you practice with good coaching and create good habits the better you will get. I know some of the kids will wrestle on there own during the week but without coaching bad habits can get started. Solid structured practices is the only way to get better. More wrestles won't help if they dont get the proper training, coaching and mat time, you will just have more wrestlers that aren't ready to compete.

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We need to keep our kids hungry cut the folkstyle season down either divide it up so kids under 8 dont wrestle 50 matches a year and the same 3 or 4 kids 10 times a year. As long as wrestling is fresh and new and exciting kids will continue to come back. Maybe we need to educate our parents I recently wached the 2004 D1 finals and 2 kansas wrestlers back to back I would say those 2 kids wrestled a lot in the summer And when they were involved in summer wrestling then our success rate was a lot higher in the summer. I just think that when kids are 4 or 5 years old out of 10 kids maybe 1 or 2 are ready to set and listen and comprehend

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Originally Posted By: 321a Wrestler
We need to keep our kids hungry cut the folkstyle season down either divide it up so kids under 8 dont wrestle 50 matches a year and the same 3 or 4 kids 10 times a year. As long as wrestling is fresh and new and exciting kids will continue to come back. Maybe we need to educate our parents I recently wached the 2004 D1 finals and 2 kansas wrestlers back to back I would say those 2 kids wrestled a lot in the summer And when they were involved in summer wrestling then our success rate was a lot higher in the summer. I just think that when kids are 4 or 5 years old out of 10 kids maybe 1 or 2 are ready to set and listen and comprehend


I think we have plenty of high school kids that fit that description also!!!!!!!!!!!!

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I agree it takes good coaching and a lot of support to become a good wrestler. I think that more of us need to promote wrestling all the time. Every time I see a family I know I ask if they are wrestling this year, try to keep them excited.

I also believe that if you sign up to coach you need to be there all the time or as much as possible. Coaches need to breathe eat and sleep wrestling.If your not there then why should they be there.It makes it a part time sport.

We need to promote summer wrestling more and get off this kick of burning them out. A burnout will burnout no matter what.Most good college wrestlers wrestled summer freestyle and greco.Doesn't mean that at 4 your need to wrestle 60 matches,but you can up the total every year or so.Start slow and work up to wrestling in the summer by 10 or 12.


We let our kids play 70-80 games a yr in baseball.But only have them wrestle 4 tournaments.

I try to sell the fact that wresting helps with other sports,just so we can get good partners for practice.

Last year I went to the elementary school my son goes to and explained what wrestling was and how it was done in a all school assembly. That way we can promote wrestling more in our community.

Tell you club members to look at talk forums. I find out a lot of things on here that keep us involved.


Make handouts to pass out at the end of the school year.most schools will let you send them home in packets.Or make posters talking about it like boy scouts or other organization.

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Originally Posted By: Cokeley
It may be a slippery slope but if you have a choice why would you choose to make it more difficult? It is not about excuses but more about how do you improve your chances. That is what the post is about. How do we improve. Someone said it earlier, if a wrestler's parents are there why in the world wouldn't our state organization embrace letting a wrestler stay with his parents? Why would the coaches shame a wrestler who wanted to stay in a room with AC when it was so hot and humid in the dorms? There is absolutely no common sense explanation. There is no argument that an athlete will not be at his peak if he has had to endure several nights of those conditions. Call it an excuse or just call it the facts. The top three teams did NOT stay in the dorms.

Well said and amen.

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Hakuna Matata Kansas wrestling, means no worries, all is well.
I just think it was a case of we had some of our best kids out and some of our best kids that went still did great but just came up a little short.

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1st my kid is ony 10. We did some free/gre this year. We ran in to a wall. Hard to find any good partners.Doing moves with a 15 year old is just hard on A 10 year old.There seems to be NO learning curve for new kids at young ages in Free/gre.

2nd Cokeley may have some thing here on working for what you want. As in the kids.For my son and I it is about life,not just winning.If you work hard better things will come.We where at every practice.Every nite we went there seem to be difrant boys.If the boys put the work in to it they should get extras.If they only make a few practices they should get less.Some times the best kids dont come to practice. I think that sucks for all the kids.We need the best kids there to push the good kids to the top. We also need them there to hone there skills.

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