Wrestling Talk Forums supported
USA Wrestling Kansas KWCA
Wrestling Talk Forums supported & maintained by USA Wrestling-Kansas
USAW USA Wrestling Kansas
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
#4310 04/03/03 06:42 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 454
Member
Member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 454
My personal opinion is to move the kids State two weeks before High School State thus eliminating High School kids, letting young kids watch High School State and allowing parents that have kids in both go to their High School Regional.

Move all Middle School Wrestling to before Christmas that way they can participate and change the 14&U weights to Middle School weights.

You have shorted the season lost a few weight classes and you can add 6&U if you want to?

Most States have their kids progam done before High School.

#4311 04/03/03 06:48 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,933
S
Member
Member
S Offline
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,933
JT,
You might add that it hasn't been District II voting down the 6U state question. As far as I know we've always strongly supported 6U state.


#4312 04/03/03 06:51 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,459
H
Member
Member
H Offline
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,459
Coachjt for Governor! You got my vote. I endorse your platform.

Seriously good plan.


Vince Nowak
Kansas College Wrestling Fund Supporter
Please join the fight with your contributions

#4313 04/03/03 08:39 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,934
Member
Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,934
CoachJT, There are some High School Kids that come back but not to the extent that I saw in Topeka. What they do there is what I suggested earlier. Use the large room used for weigh in's and then you can include both U16 and U6. Of course it comes at the condition that parents, coaches etc, volunteer to meet the extra needs of running the extra mats in the extra room. I believe this could be done with little extra cost, especially when considering in the number of extra wreslters and fans it brings in. The time constraint in OK is one of the primary reasons not so many come back.

#4314 04/03/03 08:42 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 142
N
Member
Member
N Offline
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 142
My understanding is Mo. wrestlers do not get the opportunity to wrestle in the kids program if they wrestled in high school. Freshmen on up.
I think one plus for high school kids getting to compete would be for those freshman and sophmores that wrestle JV behind a good senior. They would get more mat time and the chance for a state title. Maybe a chance to place at a state tournament or even just that chance to compete.
Many kids do not for whatever reason start wrestling until they participate with a school program. Maybe they did pretty well their first year and the kids program would offer them more mat time and again the chance to compete or place at a state tournament. Perhaps that would give them more incentive or confidence starting the next season.
I'm really not much for the idea of six and under at State I have watched so many that don't understand all the excitement, what's going on, or why the parents, everybody is so fired up.
One of the things I hate to see more than anything are the open tournaments around the six & under mats. Mom's hanging off the upper railing yelling and screaming at a little child that has no idea what's going on. Dad's screaming back at the upper rail telling mom to shut up so he can yell and scream at the little one. And to the little ones it just seems mom & dad are mad as hell. They don't know why but it makes for a long ride home. That is something I really don't want to see at our State Tournament.
Wrestling is a growing and learning experiance for the entire family. Unless maybe your the youngest child in a wrestling family. I think most of those can compete at eight & under.
I do like the idea of a six & under championship. Although I've never been to one it seems they would be done in a high school gym. Not near as many people or near as much excitement. It seems most that do advocate six & under their kids would be able to participate in the eight & under division, certainly by the time it was passed. There are no doubt those who have an older child and they want their youngest to do as well and be there at State with their older sibling. That kind of stress and presure I don't think needs to be imposed on a 4,5 or 6 year old child. Give them a chance first to see that wrestling is fun.

#4315 04/03/03 09:07 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,459
H
Member
Member
H Offline
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,459
Mr. Noblet:

I have the some of the same concerns and thoughts you expressed about the six and under participation. I believe you had some excellent points about that. There does however seem to be a strong demand for their participation. I would alter Coachjt's plan a little to revise the age divisions. Instead of our current system which is geared to 3rd grade & under (8&U), 4th and 5th (10&U), 6th & 7th (12&U), and 8th and 9th (14&U), I would propose 7 & Under (2nd grade and under), 9 & Under (3rd & 4th graders), 11 & under (5th & 6th graders) and finally 14 & under with no high school wrestlers allowed to participate but would allow kids who might have been held back a grade or started school a little late (7th & 8th graders primarily). This would use the same August 31st cutoff date to match the schools.

This would make it a little easier for a few more younger kids to participate since they would be facing 2nd graders instead of 3rd graders. I'm not sure that the majority of the high school wrestlers who actually come back to participate are really the first year Freshman or JV type wrestlers anyway. It seems like the majority of the ones I see at State are varsity wrestlers who have actually qualified if not won or placed at their high school State tournaments.

I say let's give the grade school kids the high quality State tournament experience that they deserve. I do not think we are doing that 100% right now. Let's have a Grade School Kids State Tournament. Grade school kids and high school young men and women should have separate tournaments like just about all other sports do.


Vince Nowak
Kansas College Wrestling Fund Supporter
Please join the fight with your contributions

#4316 04/03/03 09:16 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,426
Member
Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,426
Unacceptable,

we will not be getting rid of the 16&U age group and to even propose such a thing is crazy. No more talk about giving this group and that group a great state experiance. Ask just about any kid in any age group and they will tell you that thye enjoy their state experience regardless of how its run. 16 year olds are still "kids" and this is "kids" wrestling. Don't deny these wrestlers the opportunity to extend their folkstyle season. I would support adding the 6&U's even though it would just cuase more problems, however I would argue to the end about remove 16&U and you better beleive that I would be at any meeting where this issue would be brought up.


William Nigel Isom
Officials Director (USAWKS)
KSHSAA #14274
USAWKS #577
Riley KS
#4317 04/03/03 09:30 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,459
H
Member
Member
H Offline
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,459
Well Nigel, you were probably correct when you made an earlier post and said that is not going to be changed anytime soon. But that is too bad if it is true because High School kids and Grade school kids should have separate athletic events. Just about all other sports do it that way. From Coachjt's statement above it sounds like most other States even do it that way for wrestling.


Vince Nowak
Kansas College Wrestling Fund Supporter
Please join the fight with your contributions

#4318 04/04/03 03:08 AM
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Many 16 & unders don't wrestle varsity in high school and don't get the chance to wrestle in a state tournament. By dropping the 16 and under division you will be depriving a group of kids of a state experience who may have working their tail off for 10 or so years. 6 and unders can wrestle in the 8 and under at state, many have and have done well. They will have many chances in the future to wrestle in the Big Show. I know many clubs consider the 6 and under championships at Districts a pain in the butt because it drains resources and coaches from the older more mature kids.

#4319 04/04/03 03:53 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 80
I
Member
Member
I Offline
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 80
I don't think Oklahoma is the model to follow for the state tournament format, weights or age divisions. The inherent problems are the same as Kansas at this point. Nothing at all against Oklahoma. The example was great and appreciated but i think we need to do some outside of the box thinking here

i love watching the 6 and unders wrestle, lets face it, the majority of those kids are out only because of being placed there. There is no need to have them there.


I really think that we should think about a couple of things here, one--maximizing the time factor for everyone, shorter times in between, "slotted" vs a split format or current format. Example: 8 to 11, all the available mats are for age groups 10 u, 12 u, etc. Someone with the analytical ability of Mr Salyer could figure a proper length of time based on number of mats and matches.

Also as a former middle school and high school coach, i just think it is critical to have a kid come in to high school off a successfull year of middle school and kids wrestling. I lost a ton of kids who as decent 8th grade wrestlers got there butts handed to them in the kids division between 8th & 9th grade. A lot of the time it was the fragile ego of the parent that factored in but it cost me a lot of decent kids who may have let themselves develop in to good high schoolers. How many kids do u know do the yo-yo, have the good year on top of the age division and the not so good year on the bottom. I even had one family on my club team wrestle only on the on top year. It was crazy.


When i was in Nebraska, i was able to supplement my son's years on the bottom side with AAU tournaments that were based on grade level. So when he was a young 12 and under, he was on top in the 5th and 6th grade AAU division. It was nice and paved over some bumpy roads when the success was harder to come by. It worked wonders on his confidence level and by the end of the season, it really did not matter he was on the downside of the age group, and he had success.

#4320 04/04/03 10:10 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 6,248
S
Member
Member
S Offline
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 6,248
6 & UNDER STATE IS TO YOUNG PERIOD. I know I am not speaking for everyone. I have coached youth wrestling for over twenty years. I have coached 5 year olds and I have coached college all-Americans. I had a undefeated 10 & under state champ move to our area and when he grew a little and went to the 12 & under group he didn't even win 50% of his matches. I also vote at the state body meeting and I will NEVER vote for 6 & under state tournament. We do not need to put false expectations into these young children’s minds. A 6 & under state champ may not make it back to state for another 4 years or ever. This creates false expectations in the child and in the parents who think their kid is the toughest roughest rumbler this side of the Mississippi. My son was a pretty decent wrestler at six and under and won the majority of his matches in the two tournaments I let him pick to enter. When he graduated to 8 & under and he was all of 7 years old he was getting it handed to him pretty hard by some eight year olds. When he was eight he dealt some of the 7 year olds a whipping. I think as a whole that is the natural progression the majority of kids make. I as a coach do not want to burn out the young participants when he or she is in eighth grade.
I have seen it all to often that a parent is trying to create a national/Olympic champion. Your child is not you and never will be you. So lets stop all this nonsense for a 6 & under world champ. I have seen parents run their kids out of baseball, football, track, tennis, golf, etc. Do not live your life through your child’s eyes.
I have seen parents’ way out of hand watching the six and under group and our sport doesn't need that kind of pressure put on these young people.
The boys and girls will grow up at their own pace - not in your or my time frame. THE END!

#4321 04/04/03 04:24 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 454
Member
Member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 454
I don't agree with
"Many 16 & under don't wrestle varsity in high school and don't get the chance to wrestle in a state tournament."
If you look most of the 16&U placers are the same ones that either placed or qualified in High School State. How many times do you see High School State champions come back and take fourth or something in Federation?
You don't see many placers in 16&U that didn't qualify for High School State unless it is at one of the extra weights. If this is all about mat time for kids to improve make a rule that if you qualify for High School State you can't go the Federation State. That way the lesser talented kids get the State experience.
But that is not going to happen because it is about seeing how many State titles you can get and to prepare the kids that place in both every year, for College wrestling.

#4322 04/04/03 05:09 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,459
H
Member
Member
H Offline
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,459
Richard,

I never really doubted that the KWCA statement was self serving. Probably most of our statements and positions have a certain amount of a self-serving motive to them. I know my posts most of the time do. Heck I want bigger mats at State and the State qualifying tournaments for my son's age groups. I also want shorter waits between matches there and a shorter overall day especially on that first day. I want all that for him and me as a parent. So yes there is a self serving motive to my posts. I could never deny that.

I think it is okay for the KWCA to have a self serving motive to their position too. What is obvious though is that if they want our Kids season to end before the high school State tournament does than the KWCA must not be too worried that the high school wrestlers would be missing out of participating in what would then become a Grade School Kids State tournament.

I think coachjt has done a pretty good job of detailing why we have high school participation in our Kids tournament. I believe his statement that there are no plans to exclude their participation in our tournament by our Kids powers to be tells me that dropping high school wrestlers from Kids is unlikely to happen any time soon in Kansas.


Vince Nowak
Kansas College Wrestling Fund Supporter
Please join the fight with your contributions

#4323 04/04/03 08:18 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 454
Member
Member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 454
Richard,

"Is not the KWCA request for our season to be shorter due to the fact they would like their season to be longer!"

No, the original thought was to add one week but, they were told if they tried that, there was no possibility to get Dual State Passed. So they want to move Individual State back a week and add Dual State. But then some people were winning that that would interfere with their League Tournament. The last I heard was they can't get it passed because the other sports don't have the same opportunity?

Grand state championship is just a pipe dream, it won't happen.

The KWCA thinks that we push the kids too hard for too long (I agree) and they would like us to shorten the season and maybe have all the youngsters come and watch the High School State Championships.

#4324 04/06/03 05:00 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,459
H
Member
Member
H Offline
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,459
Richard,

We are trying to get a group together to present a split tournament format. That will a little bit of time to form the group and put together a proposal. Hopefully it will be given some consideration.

I would probably quit complaining about the mat sizes if all the age groups had equal size mats. Perhaps that might be the way to handle it. According to your thought if the 16 & unders had the same size small mats along with the other age groups then they too could also learn how to wrestle in the center of the mat. Aren't we trying to also teach young wrestlers motion and to move in a circle on their feet and not just tie up in the center?


Vince Nowak
Kansas College Wrestling Fund Supporter
Please join the fight with your contributions

#4325 04/06/03 08:44 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,459
H
Member
Member
H Offline
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,459
Richard,

If I wanted to continue to bicker and be petty on this, I could say yes as a child gets older they do progress to the next level and that is normally a progression from grade school events to high school events. By the way I did want bigger mats for him last year as a 10 year old too. Really it is not all 100% self serving either. My son is almost out of youth. He is going to be a 7th grader next year, so it sure would be a lot easier for me just to accept this and grin and bear it. I really would like to see the sport grow though and I do not think these long tournaments help the sport grow in participation or popularity.

I know I've more than had my say on this issue, so I should just stop posting on the topic because I'm pretty convinced that it is not changing anyway.

In closing I agree with you, "Go Jayhawks".


Vince Nowak
Kansas College Wrestling Fund Supporter
Please join the fight with your contributions

Page 2 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 4 guests, and 0 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Super Admin, bvswwrestling, CoachFitzOS, Dluce, Shawn Russell
12,303 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums11
Topics36,091
Posts250,722
Members12,303
Most Online1,305
Mar 13th, 2025
Top Posters
usawks1 8,595
smokeycabin 6,248
Aaron Sweazy 5,262
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 8.0.0
(Release build 20240826)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 8.3.23 Page Time: 0.034s Queries: 47 (0.024s) Memory: 3.1067 MB (Peak: 3.5913 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2025-08-01 07:48:04 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS